Would Dorothy and Ozma be Made Canon Today?

[Draco Dracul]

When you just are trans/black/gay/a woman/whatever in a space they arbitrarily decided should be cishet white men only (whether it be a specific fandom or the planet) and your mere existence is "shoving it down their throats", there's no difference. They all use the same basic talking points (including the three Approved Conservative Jokes), have the same end goals, and act the same in meatspace. If their justifications among themselves are slightly divergent... so what?

That works both ways. When a space has been branded as LGBT and straight people dare to voice an opinion within it then they'll get cancelled by a mob.
Both sides are full of intolerant assholes.

It's almost like there is a significant difference from forcing a group from polite society, and that same group wanting to not have it's spaces overwhelmed and taken from them by the people that keep then out of polite society.

[Draco Dracul]

A funny recent instance was when Tilda Swinton commented on her MCU role and how she was opposing the "noxious stereotype" of the Azn sage in the mountains - then she was criticized by Asian-American activists for "taking away Asian roles".

A) The real reason is that Marvel wanted Doctor Strange to play in China and in no way shape or form wanted it to be possible to assume The Ancient One is Tibetan.

B) The sage in the mountain isn't a stereotype, it's an archetype. It crops up in western literature with European sages when the stories are set in Europe. It's also common in stories from Japan, India, China, ect. Making the mountain sage in Nepal white is just the Mighty Whitey style racism.

On a personal level I find it really gross that it's still acceptable in Hollywood to cast Asian roles with white actors.

[hammerofglass]

When sb goes full zealot with "every role that matches some stereotype is racist" or "every case of a white playing a non-white role is racist", reasonable people will obviously oppose such lunacy and refuse to cooperate;
and then of course if both occur simultaneously and clash, it results in a farcical self-conteadiction and a self-pwn.


This kind of irrationality is what the narrowest definition of "SJW" refers to (look up on RationalWiki), with "progressive" sometimes used as a synonym (which is stupid of course) - and obviously it's impossible to call anyone who opposes such nonsense a "rightwinger" who "doesn't want Asians to exist" or sth.


So maybe this is a good reference point if this whole tangent discussion is to continue (though w/o my further participation, most likely).

I feel like I got slapped in the face with a generation gap reading that. I don't understand it well enough to respond to it.

I'm not sure which parts are words I'm not familiar with and what's a spelling mistake. What the hay is "sb"?

[KitWargSpectacle]

When sb goes full zealot with "every role that matches some stereotype is racist" or "every case of a white playing a non-white role is racist", reasonable people will obviously oppose such lunacy and refuse to cooperate;
and then of course if both occur simultaneously and clash, it results in a farcical self-conteadiction and a self-pwn.


This kind of irrationality is what the narrowest definition of "SJW" refers to (look up on RationalWiki), with "progressive" sometimes used as a synonym (which is stupid of course) - and obviously it's impossible to call anyone who opposes such nonsense a "rightwinger" who "doesn't want Asians to exist" or sth.


So maybe this is a good reference point if this whole tangent discussion is to continue (though w/o my further participation, most likely).

I feel like I got slapped in the face with a generation gap reading that. I don't understand it well enough to respond to it.

I'm not sure which parts are words I'm not familiar with and what's a spelling mistake. What the hay is "sb"?

"Somebody"; sth = something.

[KitWargSpectacle]

A funny recent instance was when Tilda Swinton commented on her MCU role and how she was opposing the "noxious stereotype" of the Azn sage in the mountains - then she was criticized by Asian-American activists for "taking away Asian roles".

A) The real reason is that Marvel wanted Doctor Strange to play in China and in no way shape or form wanted it to be possible to assume The Ancient One is Tibetan.

Ah, well lol.

B) The sage in the mountain isn't a stereotype, it's an archetype. It crops up in western literature with European sages when the stories are set in Europe. It's also common in stories from Japan, India, China, ect. Making the mountain sage in Nepal white is just the Mighty Whitey style racism.

On a personal level I find it really gross that it's still acceptable in Hollywood to cast Asian roles with white actors.

I lean more on the "chill and let various audiences have their preferred casts" side.


The above involved the notion of it being sort of racist if an Asian mentor instructs a white protagonist, along the lines of the "magical n" concept; nvm that that only applies if the mentor appears subservient in any way and/or the hero reaps rewards for his accomplishments while the mentor doesn't.

Just like with the race-swapping issue, the mentality behind it can be racist or not at all; the way they often go "if this thing happens then it's racist" is essentially a cargo cult type mistake.

In reality, neither the Ancient One being played by an Asian man, nor by Tilda Swinton, nor Al-Ghoul (keep forgetting the spelling lol) being Liam Neeson, is racist because the intents behind them aren't; the motivations behind either decision would've had nothing to do with racial hostility, condescension or rivalry.



Didn't know that the sage in the mountains (specifically) was also an European thing, hm - gonna have to go look that up.

[Draco Dracul]

A funny recent instance was when Tilda Swinton commented on her MCU role and how she was opposing the "noxious stereotype" of the Azn sage in the mountains - then she was criticized by Asian-American activists for "taking away Asian roles".

A) The real reason is that Marvel wanted Doctor Strange to play in China and in no way shape or form wanted it to be possible to assume The Ancient One is Tibetan.

Ah, well lol.

B) The sage in the mountain isn't a stereotype, it's an archetype. It crops up in western literature with European sages when the stories are set in Europe. It's also common in stories from Japan, India, China, ect. Making the mountain sage in Nepal white is just the Mighty Whitey style racism.

On a personal level I find it really gross that it's still acceptable in Hollywood to cast Asian roles with white actors.

I lean more on the "chill and let various audiences have their preferred casts" side.


The above involved the notion of it being sort of racist if an Asian mentor instructs a white protagonist, along the lines of the "magical n" concept; nvm that that only applies if the mentor appears subservient in any way and/or the hero reaps rewards for his accomplishments while the mentor doesn't.

Just like with the race-swapping issue, the mentality behind it can be racist or not at all; the way they often go "if this thing happens then it's racist" is essentially a cargo cult type mistake.

I'm a believer that in American and European cinema swapping a non-white role to a white one or casting a white actor in a non-white role is inherently racist due to the extreme dearth of big roles for nonwhite actors.

In reality, neither the Ancient One being played by an Asian man, nor by Tilda Swinton, nor Al-Ghoul (keep forgetting the spelling lol) being Liam Neeson, is racist because the intents behind them aren't; the motivations behind either decision would've had nothing to do with racial hostility, condescension or rivalry.

I'm willing to cut Batman Begins more slack because at least Ras Al Ghoul is supposed to be caucasian (albeit Middle Eastern rather than Irish) and Batman Begins is a better movie.

Racism doesn't really require active hostility. It can be a passive thing born of ignorance or apathy.

Didn't know that the sage in the mountains (specifically) was also an European thing, hm - gonna have to go look that up.

Another termenolgy for it would be "The Wise Hermit". That someone has found wisdom in isolation is just very common among people.

[KitWargSpectacle]

A funny recent instance was when Tilda Swinton commented on her MCU role and how she was opposing the "noxious stereotype" of the Azn sage in the mountains - then she was criticized by Asian-American activists for "taking away Asian roles".

A) The real reason is that Marvel wanted Doctor Strange to play in China and in no way shape or form wanted it to be possible to assume The Ancient One is Tibetan.

Ah, well lol.

B) The sage in the mountain isn't a stereotype, it's an archetype. It crops up in western literature with European sages when the stories are set in Europe. It's also common in stories from Japan, India, China, ect. Making the mountain sage in Nepal white is just the Mighty Whitey style racism.

On a personal level I find it really gross that it's still acceptable in Hollywood to cast Asian roles with white actors.

I lean more on the "chill and let various audiences have their preferred casts" side.


The above involved the notion of it being sort of racist if an Asian mentor instructs a white protagonist, along the lines of the "magical n" concept; nvm that that only applies if the mentor appears subservient in any way and/or the hero reaps rewards for his accomplishments while the mentor doesn't.

Just like with the race-swapping issue, the mentality behind it can be racist or not at all; the way they often go "if this thing happens then it's racist" is essentially a cargo cult type mistake.

I'm a believer that in American and European cinema swapping a non-white role to a white one or casting a white actor in a non-white role is inherently racist due to the extreme dearth of big roles for nonwhite actors.

In reality, neither the Ancient One being played by an Asian man, nor by Tilda Swinton, nor Al-Ghoul (keep forgetting the spelling lol) being Liam Neeson, is racist because the intents behind them aren't; the motivations behind either decision would've had nothing to do with racial hostility, condescension or rivalry.

I'm willing to cut Batman Begins more slack because at least Ras Al Ghoul is supposed to be caucasian (albeit Middle Eastern rather than Irish) and Batman Begins is a better movie.

Even though genetically closer to whites, and fellow imperialist colonizers as late as a century ago, stuff against MENAs is more risquayy nowadays than against East Asians; so be careful where you say that lol...

Racism doesn't really require active hostility. It can be a passive thing born of ignorance or apathy.

Ignorantly holding negative views, or maliciously, the "negative views" remain the defining criterion.

"Apathy" well if you're specifically indifferent about sb's plight when they're some other race, but aren't indifferent if it's your own, then sure that too; however none of that has anything to do with D Strange or any of these other casting controversies.

Another termenolgy for it would be "The Wise Hermit". That someone has found wisdom in isolation is just very common among people.

Ah yes that sure, but I thought the "up in the mountains" specifically wasn't. Well anyway lol

[Frustration]

"Anti-progressives", "anti-SJW" and "reichwing" are all the same people.

WRONG.

You can't even convince me that you're stupid enough to genuinely believe this bilge, hammerofglass.

[hammerofglass]

"Anti-progressives", "anti-SJW" and "reichwing" are all the same people.

WRONG.

You can't even convince me that you're stupid enough to genuinely believe this bilge, hammerofglass.

I don't believe for a second you don't know what I'm talking about. All the same rote talking points, all the same values, all the same goals.

[Frustration]

Yes, SJWs ARE often like that.

Do we have a convenient term for the equal-and-opposite people opposing the SJWs?