Is Rey too Powerful?

[TGLS]

Luke - Lost a hand in his first lightsaber battle. Only defeated Palpatine because Anakin helped him.

Given that all parties involved (Palpatine, Yoda, Obi Wan's Ghost, heck, Anakin himself) thought that Luke turning Anakin back to the light side was impossible, and had Luke cut down Vader this would have led to Palpatine winning (as this would bring Luke to the dark side), I find it hard to accept "only defeated Palpatine because he had help" as a meaningful loss. He won in the only way he could have won, in a way deemed impossible by all others.

Obi Wan - Was completely defeated by Dooku.

Also: As a Padawan, after being knocked into an endless pit and clinging on for dear life, beat a Sith who had just killed a Jedi Master in an uneven fight.

Yoda - Was completely defeated by Palpatine.

Given that Palpatine wanted Yoda dead (so as to prevent more Jedi from being trained), and Yoda managed to avoid death and flee a city planet under Palpatine's control, that's at least a draw.

Mace Windu - Killed.
All of the other Jedi we see: Killed.

In a surprise betrayal by someone they believed to be an ally. Also the tentacly haired Jedi (Ahsoka?) from Clone Wars apparently lived.

Rey - Won every battle. Never lost a limb. Ends up being the true Chosen One.

First battle was a draw because of ground being torn asunder by trilogy demands.
Second battle she won because she had the help of Ren.
I didn't see the third film.

[Nealithi]

Obi Wan - Was completely defeated by Dooku.

Also: As a Padawan, after being knocked into an endless pit and clinging on for dear life, beat a Sith who had just killed a Jedi Master in an uneven fight.

Uhm I think the Dooku fight was where Anakin lost a hand and Dooku then beat Obi Wan. There was no pit. That was Darth Maul in the previous movie.

[TGLS]

Obi Wan - Was completely defeated by Dooku.

Also: As a Padawan, after being knocked into an endless pit and clinging on for dear life, beat a Sith who had just killed a Jedi Master in an uneven fight.

Uhm I think the Dooku fight was where Anakin lost a hand and Dooku then beat Obi Wan. There was no pit. That was Darth Maul in the previous movie.

Hence also, and not "no you're wrong"

[hammerofglass]

Was the not training older students a matter of power? I thought it was a matter of indoctrination. That they wanted people too young to have any attachments or values other than what the Jedi taught them. In the old EU the Sith of the Bane line deliberately recruited teenagers and young adults so they'd have enough live to build up some angst.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Obi Wan - Was completely defeated by Dooku.

Also: As a Padawan, after being knocked into an endless pit and clinging on for dear life, beat a Sith who had just killed a Jedi Master in an uneven fight.

Uhm I think the Dooku fight was where Anakin lost a hand and Dooku then beat Obi Wan. There was no pit. That was Darth Maul in the previous movie.

Actually yeah I was only thinking about when he got ambushed and captured in the first place. He does survive though, and hardly gets the brunt end of the stick.

It's been speculated nonetheless that the force is what generally powers Kinobe to be present and relentless in most every fight that happens in the prequel trilogy though. Does not lose a hand or anything.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Was the not training older students a matter of power? I thought it was a matter of indoctrination. That they wanted people too young to have any attachments or values other than what the Jedi taught them. In the old EU the Sith of the Bane line deliberately recruited teenagers and young adults so they'd have enough live to build up some angst.

I never really thought of this, or factored it in as an implication of what Yoda was talking to Luke about in Last Jedi.

Come to think of it, that makes a lot of sense why Luke would be so butthurt about Ben. Only training infants is like the Jedi Prime Directive.

[clearspira]

Was the not training older students a matter of power? I thought it was a matter of indoctrination. That they wanted people too young to have any attachments or values other than what the Jedi taught them. In the old EU the Sith of the Bane line deliberately recruited teenagers and young adults so they'd have enough live to build up some angst.

I never really thought of this, or factored it in as an implication of what Yoda was talking to Luke about in Last Jedi.

Come to think of it, that makes a lot of sense why Luke would be so butthurt about Ben. Only training infants is like the Jedi Prime Directive.

I don't get it. Luke was just a good ol' farmboy who heeded the call before the Sequels - he was completely free of any Jedi conditioning and tradition. Why would he care what age someone is before he starts to train them? Leia was practically middle aged when he trained her.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Was the not training older students a matter of power? I thought it was a matter of indoctrination. That they wanted people too young to have any attachments or values other than what the Jedi taught them. In the old EU the Sith of the Bane line deliberately recruited teenagers and young adults so they'd have enough live to build up some angst.

I never really thought of this, or factored it in as an implication of what Yoda was talking to Luke about in Last Jedi.

Come to think of it, that makes a lot of sense why Luke would be so butthurt about Ben. Only training infants is like the Jedi Prime Directive.

I don't get it. Luke was just a good ol' farmboy who heeded the call before the Sequels - he was completely free of any Jedi conditioning and tradition. Why would he care what age someone is before he starts to train them? Leia was practically middle aged when he trained her.

Not a bad question really. All we do see of him is that he has spent time around the temple site. We'd have to assume he read them which isn't far of a stretch, and then that it fortified the idea that he did something wrong. There's supposed to be a lot of Buddhist parallel with Luke in the Last Jedi between Theravada and Mahayana fields of thought, but that stems more from awareness of death, sickness, and poverty while Luke is more at odds with himself and the religion, like Jesus.

[Lazerlike42]

Obi Wan Kenobi is a master trained by Qui Gon Jinn and Yoda. It would be a bit of a shock if he didn't win every battle. Of course it isn't even true. He got his ass kicked by Dooku and clearly would have lost to Palpatine.

Anyway... lets run down the list shall we lads?

Luke - Lost a hand in his first lightsaber battle. Only defeated Palpatine because Anakin helped him.
Anakin - Lost a hand against Dooku. Lost his whole body against Obi Wan.
Obi Wan - Was completely defeated by Dooku.
Yoda - Was completely defeated by Palpatine.
Qui Gon Jinn: Killed.
Mace Windu - Killed.
All of the other Jedi we see: Killed.
Rey - Won every battle. Never lost a limb. Ends up being the true Chosen One.

Yeah, sure lol. Not too powerful. OK.

I think Rey was probably too powerful, at least at first, but I don't think this list is quite a fair/accurate presentation.

Luke lost to Vader and only defeated Palpatine because Anakin helped him, but this was after a grand total of maybe 4 days worth of training, and facing two of the most powerful force users ever to live. I just don't see how his case is a meaningful data point.

You're right about Anakin, but "hidden" in this example is that Obi-Wan won the fight, which is a counterpoint for this list - especially given that, at the time of this fight, Obi-Wan was still a Jedi but Anakin would probably not be considered one any longer.

I strongly, strongly disagree with the suggestion that Yoda was defeated by Palpatine - and especially the idea that he was "completely" defeated. At worst their fight in the senate was a draw, but I think even that's a stretch. Really, it was a close duel for a while but Yoda clearly gained the upper hand and it seems likely he would have killed/captured/whatever he was going to do with Palpatine had the fight continued. The only reason it ended was that Palpatine, realizing he could not defeat Yoda, made a purely positional move to gain himself an escape route so he could run away.

Similarly, saying Mace Windu was killed is technically true, but it presents an inaccurate picture. He defeated Palpatine extremely handily and was only killed because he was blindsided by an ally. One might argue that this is evidence of a failure of his use of the "spidey sense" aspect of the Force, but still he's not remotely evidence that Jedi are easily bested.

Now to reiterate: I still agree with the overall point: Rey is too powerful, at least, as I said, at first. If anything, I think this is one of the biggest problems they had with the second and third films. Rey was clearly extremely powerful in The Force Awakens, and then they want to portray her as training - and even struggling with it at times - in the other films (especially The Last Jedi). It just didn't work and I think the most telling/dissonant moment is at the end of The Last Jedi when Rey moves all the rocks blocking the cavern entrance and this is presented as some great, awe-inspiring moment signifying that she finally could use the force, even though we'd already seen her do it throughout the first film.

[McAvoy]

Obi Wan Kenobi is a master trained by Qui Gon Jinn and Yoda. It would be a bit of a shock if he didn't win every battle. Of course it isn't even true. He got his ass kicked by Dooku and clearly would have lost to Palpatine.

Anyway... lets run down the list shall we lads?

Luke - Lost a hand in his first lightsaber battle. Only defeated Palpatine because Anakin helped him.
Anakin - Lost a hand against Dooku. Lost his whole body against Obi Wan.
Obi Wan - Was completely defeated by Dooku.
Yoda - Was completely defeated by Palpatine.
Qui Gon Jinn: Killed.
Mace Windu - Killed.
All of the other Jedi we see: Killed.
Rey - Won every battle. Never lost a limb. Ends up being the true Chosen One.

Yeah, sure lol. Not too powerful. OK.

I think Rey was probably too powerful, at least at first, but I don't think this list is quite a fair/accurate presentation.

Luke lost to Vader and only defeated Palpatine because Anakin helped him, but this was after a grand total of maybe 4 days worth of training, and facing two of the most powerful force users ever to live. I just don't see how his case is a meaningful data point.

You're right about Anakin, but "hidden" in this example is that Obi-Wan won the fight, which is a counterpoint for this list - especially given that, at the time of this fight, Obi-Wan was still a Jedi but Anakin would probably not be considered one any longer.

I strongly, strongly disagree with the suggestion that Yoda was defeated by Palpatine - and especially the idea that he was "completely" defeated. At worst their fight in the senate was a draw, but I think even that's a stretch. Really, it was a close duel for a while but Yoda clearly gained the upper hand and it seems likely he would have killed/captured/whatever he was going to do with Palpatine had the fight continued. The only reason it ended was that Palpatine, realizing he could not defeat Yoda, made a purely positional move to gain himself an escape route so he could run away.

Similarly, saying Mace Windu was killed is technically true, but it presents an inaccurate picture. He defeated Palpatine extremely handily and was only killed because he was blindsided by an ally. One might argue that this is evidence of a failure of his use of the "spidey sense" aspect of the Force, but still he's not remotely evidence that Jedi are easily bested.

Now to reiterate: I still agree with the overall point: Rey is too powerful, at least, as I said, at first. If anything, I think this is one of the biggest problems they had with the second and third films. Rey was clearly extremely powerful in The Force Awakens, and then they want to portray her as training - and even struggling with it at times - in the other films (especially The Last Jedi). It just didn't work and I think the most telling/dissonant moment is at the end of The Last Jedi when Rey moves all the rocks blocking the cavern entrance and this is presented as some great, awe-inspiring moment signifying that she finally could use the force, even though we'd already seen her do it throughout the first film.

In deleted scenes from Return of the Jedi and other media pretty much says that Luke after his defeat to Vader trained himself using Obi Wans journals. Also it was three years between his fight with Vader and his final fight on the second Death Star.

Which does explain how Luke is protrayed between the two movies. Luke facing Vader the second time was more collected and did fight even footed. Even had the upper hand, though Vader himself was conflicted. The whole movie Luke behaved differently than the Luke we saw in Empire.