ENT - The Xindi

[clearspira]

That being said, whether or not the Maquis or the residents are sympathetic is irrelevant to the point- what Sisko did would constitute a crime, and really Worf or any other member of the crew were well within their rights to refuse or even to consign Sisko to the brig (they might even be obligated to do so).

What makes it you so sure it would be a crime?

After all, they're using a technology that doesn't exist in real life, so it's not like there's a law specifically against it. And even if you feel that it would be illegal under current laws, they're in the future: the laws won't necessarily be the same.

Yep. Very good point. It has to be remembered that the USA (which includes the Bill of Rights despite what Kirk seemed to think) and the UN (which includes the Geneva Convention) all fell in WW3. This is the world government - AKA a single-minded monolith that seems to have a rather totalitarian grip.

Trial by jury doesn't seem to be a thing in the Federation for example. How many times have we seen single judges or admirals or captains make huge decisions regarding life and liberty? Look at what Janeway has gotten away with over the years.

[Deledrius]

And as mentioned above, the episode really got into that post-9/11 mindset of making our heroes more aggressive, more impatient and less sympathetic to a perceived villain. It's honestly most helpful in that the season shifts away and starts recognizing how shitty the attitude is, because of course looking back on it 20 years later we realize how horrible this mindset was.

It was a clearly horrible mindset then, too. Any of us who called this out for being the horrible behavior it was were labeled anti-patriotic.

This was one of the big things that soured a lot of media at the time in the eyes of the non-bloodthirsty portion of the audience.

[clearspira]

And as mentioned above, the episode really got into that post-9/11 mindset of making our heroes more aggressive, more impatient and less sympathetic to a perceived villain. It's honestly most helpful in that the season shifts away and starts recognizing how shitty the attitude is, because of course looking back on it 20 years later we realize how horrible this mindset was.

It was a clearly horrible mindset then, too. Any of us who called this out for being the horrible behavior it was were labeled anti-patriotic.

This was one of the big things that soured a lot of media at the time in the eyes of the non-bloodthirsty portion of the audience.

The most popular show of the age was ''24'' - the show rather famous for portraying torture as a tool of the good guys. Of course this was also around the time that Bush tried to argue that waterboarding and Guantanamo Bay was a good thing.

Those were dark days. Before 2001, gulags and torture was what the US used to criticise Russia or China for. Suddenly the free world and our enemies seemed closer together than they ever did before. And I'm not just getting at the US here either - Tony Blair went along with all of it.

[McAvoy]

That being said, whether or not the Maquis or the residents are sympathetic is irrelevant to the point- what Sisko did would constitute a crime, and really Worf or any other member of the crew were well within their rights to refuse or even to consign Sisko to the brig (they might even be obligated to do so).

What makes it you so sure it would be a crime?

After all, they're using a technology that doesn't exist in real life, so it's not like there's a law specifically against it. And even if you feel that it would be illegal under current laws, they're in the future: the laws won't necessarily be the same.

Yep. Very good point. It has to be remembered that the USA (which includes the Bill of Rights despite what Kirk seemed to think) and the UN (which includes the Geneva Convention) all fell in WW3. This is the world government - AKA a single-minded monolith that seems to have a rather totalitarian grip.

Trial by jury doesn't seem to be a thing in the Federation for example. How many times have we seen single judges or admirals or captains make huge decisions regarding life and liberty? Look at what Janeway has gotten away with over the years.

That's the military. Military doesn't use juries. The CO is the judge and jury.

Unless the offense happens outside the military. Like off base, off ship. You can easily get hit double between the military and the civilian courts.

Like a DUI. Get hit with the civilian court and the military hammers you for that too.

[TGLS]

I dunno, there were peculiarities like Measure of a Man and Author, Author (especially) where Federation officers made decisions that were way beyond court martials and the like.

[McAvoy]

I dunno, there were peculiarities like Measure of a Man and Author, Author (especially) where Federation officers made decisions that were way beyond court martials and the like.

Well, those two examples involved artificial lifeforms. I have yet to see the Air Force have a court on whether their Predator drones are sentient or not.

I am joking of course. I have to rewatch the episodes but wasn't there a point in Measure of a Man where it was argued that Data was Starfleet property? And I kinda vaguely remember non Starfleet was involved with Author Author?

Meausre of a Man to me could have been a first step if Data lost. Picard and crew then could have went to the civilian courts/Federation courts if they lost.

I have to rewatch these episodes.

[Linkara]

I dunno, there were peculiarities like Measure of a Man and Author, Author (especially) where Federation officers made decisions that were way beyond court martials and the like.

Well, those two examples involved artificial lifeforms. I have yet to see the Air Force have a court on whether their Predator drones are sentient or not.

I am joking of course. I have to rewatch the episodes but wasn't there a point in Measure of a Man where it was argued that Data was Starfleet property? And I kinda vaguely remember non Starfleet was involved with Author Author?

Meausre of a Man to me could have been a first step if Data lost. Picard and crew then could have went to the civilian courts/Federation courts if they lost.

I have to rewatch these episodes.

The reason this stuck primarily to military courts was because mainly the case was about whether Data could legally refuse an order - if he was property, he could not. If he was a sentient life form, then he could. Obviously the decision rippled out a bit.

Honestly, my only disappointment with Measure of a Man is that they didn't REALLY bring in the argument that Starfleet already tacitly considers Data a sentient being by awarding him medals, commendations, entrance into Starfleet through the academy, and a rank that affords him authority over others. Maddox brings up the idea of "Could the Enterprise computer refuse an order?" but we don't award medals and commendations to a computer.

[McAvoy]

I dunno, there were peculiarities like Measure of a Man and Author, Author (especially) where Federation officers made decisions that were way beyond court martials and the like.

Well, those two examples involved artificial lifeforms. I have yet to see the Air Force have a court on whether their Predator drones are sentient or not.

I am joking of course. I have to rewatch the episodes but wasn't there a point in Measure of a Man where it was argued that Data was Starfleet property? And I kinda vaguely remember non Starfleet was involved with Author Author?

Meausre of a Man to me could have been a first step if Data lost. Picard and crew then could have went to the civilian courts/Federation courts if they lost.

I have to rewatch these episodes.

The reason this stuck primarily to military courts was because mainly the case was about whether Data could legally refuse an order - if he was property, he could not. If he was a sentient life form, then he could. Obviously the decision rippled out a bit.

Honestly, my only disappointment with Measure of a Man is that they didn't REALLY bring in the argument that Starfleet already tacitly considers Data a sentient being by awarding him medals, commendations, entrance into Starfleet through the academy, and a rank that affords him authority over others. Maddox brings up the idea of "Could the Enterprise computer refuse an order?" but we don't award medals and commendations to a computer.

Damn I forgot about that. You are right about that. Data was awarded that and by extension Starfleet did consider him to be sentient.

I guess you would have to cut something else to squeeze that point in for the episode.

[clearspira]

I dunno, there were peculiarities like Measure of a Man and Author, Author (especially) where Federation officers made decisions that were way beyond court martials and the like.

Well, those two examples involved artificial lifeforms. I have yet to see the Air Force have a court on whether their Predator drones are sentient or not.

I am joking of course. I have to rewatch the episodes but wasn't there a point in Measure of a Man where it was argued that Data was Starfleet property? And I kinda vaguely remember non Starfleet was involved with Author Author?

Meausre of a Man to me could have been a first step if Data lost. Picard and crew then could have went to the civilian courts/Federation courts if they lost.

I have to rewatch these episodes.

The reason this stuck primarily to military courts was because mainly the case was about whether Data could legally refuse an order - if he was property, he could not. If he was a sentient life form, then he could. Obviously the decision rippled out a bit.

Honestly, my only disappointment with Measure of a Man is that they didn't REALLY bring in the argument that Starfleet already tacitly considers Data a sentient being by awarding him medals, commendations, entrance into Starfleet through the academy, and a rank that affords him authority over others. Maddox brings up the idea of "Could the Enterprise computer refuse an order?" but we don't award medals and commendations to a computer.

Damn I forgot about that. You are right about that. Data was awarded that and by extension Starfleet did consider him to be sentient.

I guess you would have to cut something else to squeeze that point in for the episode.

I don't watch ''Picard'' so I have to ask: how does ''Measure of a Man'' fit in with the mass-produced Data's in that show? Like Guinan said: the whole point of this trial wasn't just to protect Data from Maddox, it was to protect the coming android race from being slaves.
It seems as if ''Picard'' has diminished this episode.

[CrypticMirror]

I dunno, there were peculiarities like Measure of a Man and Author, Author (especially) where Federation officers made decisions that were way beyond court martials and the like.

Well, those two examples involved artificial lifeforms. I have yet to see the Air Force have a court on whether their Predator drones are sentient or not.

I am joking of course. I have to rewatch the episodes but wasn't there a point in Measure of a Man where it was argued that Data was Starfleet property? And I kinda vaguely remember non Starfleet was involved with Author Author?

Meausre of a Man to me could have been a first step if Data lost. Picard and crew then could have went to the civilian courts/Federation courts if they lost.

I have to rewatch these episodes.

The reason this stuck primarily to military courts was because mainly the case was about whether Data could legally refuse an order - if he was property, he could not. If he was a sentient life form, then he could. Obviously the decision rippled out a bit.

Honestly, my only disappointment with Measure of a Man is that they didn't REALLY bring in the argument that Starfleet already tacitly considers Data a sentient being by awarding him medals, commendations, entrance into Starfleet through the academy, and a rank that affords him authority over others. Maddox brings up the idea of "Could the Enterprise computer refuse an order?" but we don't award medals and commendations to a computer.

Damn I forgot about that. You are right about that. Data was awarded that and by extension Starfleet did consider him to be sentient.

I guess you would have to cut something else to squeeze that point in for the episode.

I don't watch ''Picard'' so I have to ask: how does ''Measure of a Man'' fit in with the mass-produced Data's in that show? Like Guinan said: the whole point of this trial wasn't just to protect Data from Maddox, it was to protect the coming android race from being slaves.
It seems as if ''Picard'' has diminished this episode.

The androids in PIC were supposedly nerfed versions of Data, in terms of intelligence, basically just glorified mobile mannequins with about holodeck npc level of awareness. Just enough to understand what they were asked to do, but not enough to pass a Voight Kampff test. Yes it is stupid, but it is supposed to be the kind of stupid that shows what happens when you stop listening to people like Picard and abandon the moral highground.