Is Rey too Powerful?

[Lazerlike42]

Obi Wan Kenobi is a master trained by Qui Gon Jinn and Yoda. It would be a bit of a shock if he didn't win every battle. Of course it isn't even true. He got his ass kicked by Dooku and clearly would have lost to Palpatine.

Anyway... lets run down the list shall we lads?

Luke - Lost a hand in his first lightsaber battle. Only defeated Palpatine because Anakin helped him.
Anakin - Lost a hand against Dooku. Lost his whole body against Obi Wan.
Obi Wan - Was completely defeated by Dooku.
Yoda - Was completely defeated by Palpatine.
Qui Gon Jinn: Killed.
Mace Windu - Killed.
All of the other Jedi we see: Killed.
Rey - Won every battle. Never lost a limb. Ends up being the true Chosen One.

Yeah, sure lol. Not too powerful. OK.

I think Rey was probably too powerful, at least at first, but I don't think this list is quite a fair/accurate presentation.

Luke lost to Vader and only defeated Palpatine because Anakin helped him, but this was after a grand total of maybe 4 days worth of training, and facing two of the most powerful force users ever to live. I just don't see how his case is a meaningful data point.

You're right about Anakin, but "hidden" in this example is that Obi-Wan won the fight, which is a counterpoint for this list - especially given that, at the time of this fight, Obi-Wan was still a Jedi but Anakin would probably not be considered one any longer.

I strongly, strongly disagree with the suggestion that Yoda was defeated by Palpatine - and especially the idea that he was "completely" defeated. At worst their fight in the senate was a draw, but I think even that's a stretch. Really, it was a close duel for a while but Yoda clearly gained the upper hand and it seems likely he would have killed/captured/whatever he was going to do with Palpatine had the fight continued. The only reason it ended was that Palpatine, realizing he could not defeat Yoda, made a purely positional move to gain himself an escape route so he could run away.

Similarly, saying Mace Windu was killed is technically true, but it presents an inaccurate picture. He defeated Palpatine extremely handily and was only killed because he was blindsided by an ally. One might argue that this is evidence of a failure of his use of the "spidey sense" aspect of the Force, but still he's not remotely evidence that Jedi are easily bested.

Now to reiterate: I still agree with the overall point: Rey is too powerful, at least, as I said, at first. If anything, I think this is one of the biggest problems they had with the second and third films. Rey was clearly extremely powerful in The Force Awakens, and then they want to portray her as training - and even struggling with it at times - in the other films (especially The Last Jedi). It just didn't work and I think the most telling/dissonant moment is at the end of The Last Jedi when Rey moves all the rocks blocking the cavern entrance and this is presented as some great, awe-inspiring moment signifying that she finally could use the force, even though we'd already seen her do it throughout the first film.

In deleted scenes from Return of the Jedi and other media pretty much says that Luke after his defeat to Vader trained himself using Obi Wans journals. Also it was three years between his fight with Vader and his final fight on the second Death Star.

Which does explain how Luke is protrayed between the two movies. Luke facing Vader the second time was more collected and did fight even footed. Even had the upper hand, though Vader himself was conflicted. The whole movie Luke behaved differently than the Luke we saw in Empire.

Yes, I think that even without some kind of "extra information" it is reasonable for the viewer to assume that Luke continued to work on things after his training with Yoda/Obi-Wan. Still, there's a pretty big difference between training yourself from books and receiving personal training from a master.

[McAvoy]

Without a doubt. It is a point of contention with fans to this day. How much real training Luke had.

I personally believe Luke wasn't still in Vader's league if Vader treated Luke like any of the other Force users before him. Vader was holding back either intentionally or subconsciously. Also let's not forget Palpatine really did want Luke.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The mind-trick was a more developed character writing set up by her being established as someone who survives by bartering and is indicatively charismatic. She's also a great deal older than Anakin and probably Luke, and accustom to a more aggressive lifestyle. It's debatable as to how advanced a casual mind-trick is, but there's also the consideration that she's just force sensitive and naturally inclined to use jedi mindtricks.

With regard to the fight, I thought that Jill Bearup addressed it pretty well, another part of the writing, where Kylo's ego is obviously getting the better of him, and he is also wounded from being shot by Chewie's big ass gun. It's reasonable to consider that the force was able to guide her discretely through the events discussed.

Heh, Jill Bearup's review is who I was thinking of as well.

Yeah? What about it?

I had a parallel view and thought it amusing we basically cited the same source? I was not arguing.

My mistake sorry.

[Frustration]

The problem with Rey isn't that she's too powerful, but that she's too competent. Her technical ability is 'earned' within the story by her childhood spent scavenging. It's not her strength with the Force, but her facility with learned skills that she never learned, that is objectionable.

I can easily imagine a Force-sensitive accidentally imposing their will on another's mind in a moment of panic - the "Jedi Mind Trick". I can't see an untrained person carefully and intentionally attempting the Mind Trick when they've never done it, seen it, or been told of its existence. Which is what Rey does.

She's a badly-written character - not a Mary Sue, which is the author inserting themselves into the story as an impossibly perfect and competent character, but an example of authors inviting the audience to insert themselves into the story with an impossibly perfect and competent character.

I suggest that such characters henceforth be known as Reys, to parallel Mary Sues.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I can easily imagine a Force-sensitive accidentally imposing their will on another's mind in a moment of panic - the "Jedi Mind Trick". I can't see an untrained person carefully and intentionally attempting the Mind Trick when they've never done it, seen it, or been told of its existence. Which is what Rey does.

Based on what though?

Bad writing I'm not really objecting about. It's kind of a black/white assessment of whether you overall buy it or not.

That being said, what do we know about the jedi mindtrick, specifically? Just based on the movies, this isn't a structural universe flaw, but just an overall writing directive. She's supposed to be special and that's the point of any Star Wars trilogy. A lot of the arguments, whether about being too powerful or too competent, rely on her just doing certain things at a quicker pace.

[McAvoy]

I can easily imagine a Force-sensitive accidentally imposing their will on another's mind in a moment of panic - the "Jedi Mind Trick". I can't see an untrained person carefully and intentionally attempting the Mind Trick when they've never done it, seen it, or been told of its existence. Which is what Rey does.

Based on what though?

Bad writing I'm not really objecting about. It's kind of a black/white assessment of whether you overall buy it or not.

That being said, what do we know about the jedi mindtrick, specifically? Just based on the movies, this isn't a structural universe flaw, but just an overall writing directive. She's supposed to be special and that's the point of any Star Wars trilogy. A lot of the arguments, whether about being too powerful or too competent, rely on her just doing certain things at a quicker pace.

Much quicker pace.

Someone probably can explain it better, but if you establish in prior films and other media in any franchise that for you do to something you must do it in a certain amount of time.

Rey and Luke started out pretty much at the same time. Perhaps Rey is a bit older. But they started out at let's say Level 1 noob in their respective trilogies. Luke is son of the Chosen One, someone who was supposed to be even more powerful than Palpatine. Rey is the granddaughter of Palpatine.

We saw Rey in one movie, to roughly where it took Luke two movies to do, probably even better. It took Luke years to get to that point. Rey? A week?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Rey and Luke started out pretty much at the same time. Perhaps Rey is a bit older. But they started out at let's say Level 1 noob in their respective trilogies. Luke is son of the Chosen One, someone who was supposed to be even more powerful than Palpatine. Rey is the granddaughter of Palpatine.

My problem is that "a bit older" can mean a bit of this or that or everything. You're still framing it as basic tabletop rpg rules, and as if none of the normies get it. I've said in the past that Luke is nothing definitive of a natural force learning progression. He's one outlier next to Rey who is also an outlier written under modern pretexts for story basis.

btw if we really are going to compare who has more force sensitive aptitudes (between 3 people for the sake of it), between a slave boy devoted to helping his mother in his spare time, a hungry and thirsty woman who opts to take compassion for a droid she just met, or a farm brat who wants to join the air force. Like how are you going to argue for sensibility merit in favor of the last guy?

[Frustration]

Rey concentrates, stares directly at the stormtrooper, and slowly and purposefully says what she wants him to do, with deliberate emphasis.

If you didn't know how the Mind Trick works, and had only rumors and stories which were exaggerated into near-legends, and were greatly emotionally distressed by terror and apprehension, why would you do any of those things, especially if you didn't know you were Force-sensitive?

It's not so much a matter of time, as the possession of appropriate knowledge. No explanation is ever given for how Rey knows this - not that she was trained as a very young child and has forgotten, no Force ghosts giving her guidance, nothing. Zip, zilch, nada.

Because she's a Rey.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Rey concentrates, stares directly at the stormtrooper, and slowly and purposefully says what she wants him to do, with deliberate emphasis.

If you didn't know how the Mind Trick works, and had only rumors and stories which were exaggerated into near-legends, and were greatly emotionally distressed by terror and apprehension, why would you do any of those things, especially if you didn't know you were Force-sensitive?

It's not so much a matter of time, as the possession of appropriate knowledge. No explanation is ever given for how Rey knows this - not that she was trained as a very young child and has forgotten, no Force ghosts giving her guidance, nothing. Zip, zilch, nada.

Because she's a Rey.

And we're back to square 1 with table top rpg rules.

There's no established rulebook on how the mindtrick works. Flying a spacecraft and firing torpedos guided by the force... we have 2 instances of that, and that's it for the all we know about "learning how to force."

Bad writing, you can call it that. It's not exciting, again, because anyone can call it "bad writing" for any reason. By terms of writing though, it's specifically not breaking rules as much as not showing what you want to see.

[clearspira]

Rey concentrates, stares directly at the stormtrooper, and slowly and purposefully says what she wants him to do, with deliberate emphasis.

If you didn't know how the Mind Trick works, and had only rumors and stories which were exaggerated into near-legends, and were greatly emotionally distressed by terror and apprehension, why would you do any of those things, especially if you didn't know you were Force-sensitive?

It's not so much a matter of time, as the possession of appropriate knowledge. No explanation is ever given for how Rey knows this - not that she was trained as a very young child and has forgotten, no Force ghosts giving her guidance, nothing. Zip, zilch, nada.

Because she's a Rey.

And we're back to square 1 with table top rpg rules.

There's no established rulebook on how the mindtrick works. Flying a spacecraft and firing torpedos guided by the force... we have 2 instances of that, and that's it for the all we know about "learning how to force."

Bad writing, you can call it that. It's not exciting, again, because anyone can call it "bad writing" for any reason. By terms of writing though, it's specifically not breaking rules as much as not showing what you want to see.

If not bad writing, then how do you explain how she goes from ''the Force was a legend that you just told me was real' to mind trick in six(?) hours?

That is Hagrid telling Harry that he is a wizard and then pulling off a Patronus just after he buys a wand from Diagon Alley.