Is Rey too Powerful?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Everything including a fight against a wounded man filled with rage and arrogance, for one. And there was supposed to be a reason for her talents mind you. Abrams didn't exactly drop the ball that was the subversion game.

But again, no one arguing about mind tricks here knows anything official about how difficult they are except for anecdotal references based on observation. Plenty of people agree that we know nothing of Luke's training, and that he is a very obscure example for reference. And that's all we get in lieu of orthodox Jedi and with regard to mind tricks.

I agree about bad writing, mr. Frustration. Most anybody agrees that the trilogy on the whole kinda blows, and I personally believe that her arc was on rails. There's nothing, however, contradictory that I've seen anyone point to.

Luke barely had any training between New Hope and Empire. That is evident. He barely was able to force grab his lightsaber. He couldn't lift his own X Wing. We are not sure how long Luke trained with Yoda in Empire either, but it couldn't have been long. He would have been killed within minutes if Darth Vader wasn't toying with him.

Rey, could use the Jedi Mind Trick, have full control of the force grab to rival Ren. Ren who had years if not decades to learn to use the Force. She could lift rocks in the end, not one or two but dozens.

What she can do is entirely contradictory to what is established in the established Star Wars universe.

Neat. All Luke had was like a day of tutelage when he blew up the death star. There's also a scene where Obi Wan does a mindtrick and explains that it's a pretty standard feat upon the weak minded.

Now you and everybody else here seems to link the significance of these two scenes in New Hope together, save for the fact that Obi Wan has about 60 years of Jedi experience, fair point taken. But the comparison of Luke blowing up the deathstar, the most important and prolific of protagonist's feats in the entirety of the franchise, is easily explained away by a day's worth of explanation at the pace of 70's dialog. And this is when you proclaim, and we agree, that Luke was still a runt in Empire with the force. So you then tell me that pulling off a mindtrick without a day's worth of explanation and very basic crash course, is so absurd that it is actually backwards in logic in the Star Wars universe, which is the implication of being contradictory.


I'll see you in the morning I suppose.

edit: Oh yeah and there's also the fact that she didn't just do it out of nowhere, Kylo tried to protrude into her mind and she gracefully resisted.

[McAvoy]

Everything including a fight against a wounded man filled with rage and arrogance, for one. And there was supposed to be a reason for her talents mind you. Abrams didn't exactly drop the ball that was the subversion game.

But again, no one arguing about mind tricks here knows anything official about how difficult they are except for anecdotal references based on observation. Plenty of people agree that we know nothing of Luke's training, and that he is a very obscure example for reference. And that's all we get in lieu of orthodox Jedi and with regard to mind tricks.

I agree about bad writing, mr. Frustration. Most anybody agrees that the trilogy on the whole kinda blows, and I personally believe that her arc was on rails. There's nothing, however, contradictory that I've seen anyone point to.

Luke barely had any training between New Hope and Empire. That is evident. He barely was able to force grab his lightsaber. He couldn't lift his own X Wing. We are not sure how long Luke trained with Yoda in Empire either, but it couldn't have been long. He would have been killed within minutes if Darth Vader wasn't toying with him.

Rey, could use the Jedi Mind Trick, have full control of the force grab to rival Ren. Ren who had years if not decades to learn to use the Force. She could lift rocks in the end, not one or two but dozens.

What she can do is entirely contradictory to what is established in the established Star Wars universe.

Neat. All Luke had was like a day of tutelage when he blew up the death star. There's also a scene where Obi Wan does a mindtrick and explains that it's a pretty standard feat upon the weak minded.

Now you and everybody else here seems to link the significance of these two scenes in New Hope together, save for the fact that Obi Wan has about 60 years of Jedi experience, fair point taken. But the comparison of Luke blowing up the deathstar, the most important and prolific of protagonist's feats in the entirety of the franchise, is easily explained away by a day's worth of explanation at the pace of 70's dialog. And this is when you proclaim, and we agree, that Luke was still a runt in Empire with the force. So you then tell me that pulling off a mindtrick without a day's worth of explanation and very basic crash course, is so absurd that it is actually backwards in logic in the Star Wars universe, which is the implication of being contradictory.


I'll see you in the morning I suppose.

edit: Oh yeah and there's also the fact that she didn't just do it out of nowhere, Kylo tried to protrude into her mind and she gracefully resisted.

Let me ask before I answer anymore questions. How much did Rey know about the Force before she used that Jedi Mind Trick?

[clearspira]

Everything including a fight against a wounded man filled with rage and arrogance, for one. And there was supposed to be a reason for her talents mind you. Abrams didn't exactly drop the ball that was the subversion game.

But again, no one arguing about mind tricks here knows anything official about how difficult they are except for anecdotal references based on observation. Plenty of people agree that we know nothing of Luke's training, and that he is a very obscure example for reference. And that's all we get in lieu of orthodox Jedi and with regard to mind tricks.

I agree about bad writing, mr. Frustration. Most anybody agrees that the trilogy on the whole kinda blows, and I personally believe that her arc was on rails. There's nothing, however, contradictory that I've seen anyone point to.

Luke barely had any training between New Hope and Empire. That is evident. He barely was able to force grab his lightsaber. He couldn't lift his own X Wing. We are not sure how long Luke trained with Yoda in Empire either, but it couldn't have been long. He would have been killed within minutes if Darth Vader wasn't toying with him.

Rey, could use the Jedi Mind Trick, have full control of the force grab to rival Ren. Ren who had years if not decades to learn to use the Force. She could lift rocks in the end, not one or two but dozens.

What she can do is entirely contradictory to what is established in the established Star Wars universe.

Neat. All Luke had was like a day of tutelage when he blew up the death star. There's also a scene where Obi Wan does a mindtrick and explains that it's a pretty standard feat upon the weak minded.

Now you and everybody else here seems to link the significance of these two scenes in New Hope together, save for the fact that Obi Wan has about 60 years of Jedi experience, fair point taken. But the comparison of Luke blowing up the deathstar, the most important and prolific of protagonist's feats in the entirety of the franchise, is easily explained away by a day's worth of explanation at the pace of 70's dialog. And this is when you proclaim, and we agree, that Luke was still a runt in Empire with the force. So you then tell me that pulling off a mindtrick without a day's worth of explanation and very basic crash course, is so absurd that it is actually backwards in logic in the Star Wars universe, which is the implication of being contradictory.


I'll see you in the morning I suppose.

edit: Oh yeah and there's also the fact that she didn't just do it out of nowhere, Kylo tried to protrude into her mind and she gracefully resisted.

Let me ask before I answer anymore questions. How much did Rey know about the Force before she used that Jedi Mind Trick?

Nothing. The Force was a myth by TFA. Rey and Finn had to be told by Han what it was. Its a dumb as fluff plotline that what the Emperor, Luke and Vader did could turn into a myth in a single generation so I like to think its because she's a desert rat on an out of the way planet. Either way the facts are clear: the Force was a story to her. And frankly, I find the notion of the Force guiding Luke's trigger finger to be far more believable than gaining the ability to become Jean Grey. People seem to forget that Luke was about to join the Empire as a pilot in ANH so the argument can be made that the Force was just building upon his natural abilities.

Presumably as well - and this is just a presumption - Obi Wan did impart some wisdom to Luke over the years. He states that he ''watched over'' Luke. What does that mean in practice though? It didn't extend to actual Force training obviously. But Luke was aware of the Clone Wars. He was aware of the Jedi. He knew Obi Wan by name - even if that name was ''Old Ben''.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Everything including a fight against a wounded man filled with rage and arrogance, for one. And there was supposed to be a reason for her talents mind you. Abrams didn't exactly drop the ball that was the subversion game.

But again, no one arguing about mind tricks here knows anything official about how difficult they are except for anecdotal references based on observation. Plenty of people agree that we know nothing of Luke's training, and that he is a very obscure example for reference. And that's all we get in lieu of orthodox Jedi and with regard to mind tricks.

I agree about bad writing, mr. Frustration. Most anybody agrees that the trilogy on the whole kinda blows, and I personally believe that her arc was on rails. There's nothing, however, contradictory that I've seen anyone point to.

Luke barely had any training between New Hope and Empire. That is evident. He barely was able to force grab his lightsaber. He couldn't lift his own X Wing. We are not sure how long Luke trained with Yoda in Empire either, but it couldn't have been long. He would have been killed within minutes if Darth Vader wasn't toying with him.

Rey, could use the Jedi Mind Trick, have full control of the force grab to rival Ren. Ren who had years if not decades to learn to use the Force. She could lift rocks in the end, not one or two but dozens.

What she can do is entirely contradictory to what is established in the established Star Wars universe.

Neat. All Luke had was like a day of tutelage when he blew up the death star. There's also a scene where Obi Wan does a mindtrick and explains that it's a pretty standard feat upon the weak minded.

Now you and everybody else here seems to link the significance of these two scenes in New Hope together, save for the fact that Obi Wan has about 60 years of Jedi experience, fair point taken. But the comparison of Luke blowing up the deathstar, the most important and prolific of protagonist's feats in the entirety of the franchise, is easily explained away by a day's worth of explanation at the pace of 70's dialog. And this is when you proclaim, and we agree, that Luke was still a runt in Empire with the force. So you then tell me that pulling off a mindtrick without a day's worth of explanation and very basic crash course, is so absurd that it is actually backwards in logic in the Star Wars universe, which is the implication of being contradictory.


I'll see you in the morning I suppose.

edit: Oh yeah and there's also the fact that she didn't just do it out of nowhere, Kylo tried to protrude into her mind and she gracefully resisted.

Let me ask before I answer anymore questions. How much did Rey know about the Force before she used that Jedi Mind Trick?

About as much as Luke, albeit with more direct exposure to it.

[McAvoy]

Everything including a fight against a wounded man filled with rage and arrogance, for one. And there was supposed to be a reason for her talents mind you. Abrams didn't exactly drop the ball that was the subversion game.

But again, no one arguing about mind tricks here knows anything official about how difficult they are except for anecdotal references based on observation. Plenty of people agree that we know nothing of Luke's training, and that he is a very obscure example for reference. And that's all we get in lieu of orthodox Jedi and with regard to mind tricks.

I agree about bad writing, mr. Frustration. Most anybody agrees that the trilogy on the whole kinda blows, and I personally believe that her arc was on rails. There's nothing, however, contradictory that I've seen anyone point to.

Luke barely had any training between New Hope and Empire. That is evident. He barely was able to force grab his lightsaber. He couldn't lift his own X Wing. We are not sure how long Luke trained with Yoda in Empire either, but it couldn't have been long. He would have been killed within minutes if Darth Vader wasn't toying with him.

Rey, could use the Jedi Mind Trick, have full control of the force grab to rival Ren. Ren who had years if not decades to learn to use the Force. She could lift rocks in the end, not one or two but dozens.

What she can do is entirely contradictory to what is established in the established Star Wars universe.

Neat. All Luke had was like a day of tutelage when he blew up the death star. There's also a scene where Obi Wan does a mindtrick and explains that it's a pretty standard feat upon the weak minded.

Now you and everybody else here seems to link the significance of these two scenes in New Hope together, save for the fact that Obi Wan has about 60 years of Jedi experience, fair point taken. But the comparison of Luke blowing up the deathstar, the most important and prolific of protagonist's feats in the entirety of the franchise, is easily explained away by a day's worth of explanation at the pace of 70's dialog. And this is when you proclaim, and we agree, that Luke was still a runt in Empire with the force. So you then tell me that pulling off a mindtrick without a day's worth of explanation and very basic crash course, is so absurd that it is actually backwards in logic in the Star Wars universe, which is the implication of being contradictory.


I'll see you in the morning I suppose.

edit: Oh yeah and there's also the fact that she didn't just do it out of nowhere, Kylo tried to protrude into her mind and she gracefully resisted.

Let me ask before I answer anymore questions. How much did Rey know about the Force before she used that Jedi Mind Trick?

Nothing. The Force was a myth by TFA. Rey and Finn had to be told by Han what it was. Its a dumb as fluff plotline that what the Emperor, Luke and Vader did could turn into a myth in a single generation so I like to think its because she's a desert rat on an out of the way planet. Either way the facts are clear: the Force was a story to her. And frankly, I find the notion of the Force guiding Luke's trigger finger to be far more believable than gaining the ability to become Jean Grey. People seem to forget that Luke was about to join the Empire as a pilot in ANH so the argument can be made that the Force was just building upon his natural abilities.

Presumably as well - and this is just a presumption - Obi Wan did impart some wisdom to Luke over the years. He states that he ''watched over'' Luke. What does that mean in practice though? It didn't extend to actual Force training obviously. But Luke was aware of the Clone Wars. He was aware of the Jedi. He knew Obi Wan by name - even if that name was ''Old Ben''.

It was actually stated in a New Hope that Luke was a good pilot right before the run on the Death Star. I think he was shooting at animals though...

[Frustration]

Luke was a great pilot, good enough to instantly be accepted by the Rebellion. Yes, I'm sure they'd put up as many ships as they could with any pilots they could, but they also had a limited number of ships. They weren't going to put a green novice in the air if they could get someone with more experience and skill for their desperate last stand.

Luke had some brief discussions with Obi Wan, a little bit of training in Zen Archery, and a Force Ghost helping direct his actions. That's how he managed the improbable shot that took out the Death Star.

Rey had... nothing. No examples, no training, no Force Ghost whispering in her ear. I could buy her technical knowledge and sensitivity to the Force resulting in her pulling out the component restraining the full functioning of the Falcon - that's established enough to make sense. But nothing else she does makes the slightest bit of sense, in the context of story development and verisimilitude.

Because she's a Rey.

[Nealithi]

Luke was a great pilot, good enough to instantly be accepted by the Rebellion. Yes, I'm sure they'd put up as many ships as they could with any pilots they could, but they also had a limited number of ships. They weren't going to put a green novice in the air if they could get someone with more experience and skill for their desperate last stand.

Luke had some brief discussions with Obi Wan, a little bit of training in Zen Archery, and a Force Ghost helping direct his actions. That's how he managed the improbable shot that took out the Death Star.

Rey had... nothing. No examples, no training, no Force Ghost whispering in her ear. I could buy her technical knowledge and sensitivity to the Force resulting in her pulling out the component restraining the full functioning of the Falcon - that's established enough to make sense. But nothing else she does makes the slightest bit of sense, in the context of story development and verisimilitude.

Because she's a Rey.

If I may expand on this?

Luke was a pilot that flew through canyons as narrow as the Death Star trench. And shot womprats that were 'barely bigger than two meters'. Meaning he literally had been practicing this attack for years. Before he had that day or so of training and a force ghost whispering to him.

Anakin was a pod racer, someone with the reflexes to compete in a sport where humans don't because our reflexes are too slow. He was a mechanical expert due to working with Watto's junk all the time. His working a starfighter was not that good. He did not know how to fly one. He had a very lucky accident with a crash landing. If anything he seemed to be practiced in crash landing. He became a better pilot with Jedi training, though he lagged as a swordsman.

Rey knowing how to put vapor to kill boarders. Explained by her day job. Same as her understanding of pulling the component as stated earlier.
Where does force suggestion come from?

[McAvoy]

Luke was a great pilot, good enough to instantly be accepted by the Rebellion. Yes, I'm sure they'd put up as many ships as they could with any pilots they could, but they also had a limited number of ships. They weren't going to put a green novice in the air if they could get someone with more experience and skill for their desperate last stand.

Luke had some brief discussions with Obi Wan, a little bit of training in Zen Archery, and a Force Ghost helping direct his actions. That's how he managed the improbable shot that took out the Death Star.

Rey had... nothing. No examples, no training, no Force Ghost whispering in her ear. I could buy her technical knowledge and sensitivity to the Force resulting in her pulling out the component restraining the full functioning of the Falcon - that's established enough to make sense. But nothing else she does makes the slightest bit of sense, in the context of story development and verisimilitude.

Because she's a Rey.

If I may expand on this?

Luke was a pilot that flew through canyons as narrow as the Death Star trench. And shot womprats that were 'barely bigger than two meters'. Meaning he literally had been practicing this attack for years. Before he had that day or so of training and a force ghost whispering to him.

Anakin was a pod racer, someone with the reflexes to compete in a sport where humans don't because our reflexes are too slow. He was a mechanical expert due to working with Watto's junk all the time. His working a starfighter was not that good. He did not know how to fly one. He had a very lucky accident with a crash landing. If anything he seemed to be practiced in crash landing. He became a better pilot with Jedi training, though he lagged as a swordsman.

Rey knowing how to put vapor to kill boarders. Explained by her day job. Same as her understanding of pulling the component as stated earlier.
Where does force suggestion come from?

Exactly. I can buy into Rey figuring out the Falcon. Her actions leaving the planet made sense. Falcon there, though was too convenient and Han finding her so soon too. But that is just a story issue, an Abrams thing.

[clearspira]

Where did Rey learn how to speak Wookie? Or learn how to swim on her desert planet?

[Nealithi]

Where did Rey learn how to speak Wookie? Or learn how to swim on her desert planet?

Wow. I think I just sprained my wrist trying to come up with a handwave here. I mean the language thing could just come up. She had to have gotten some kind of education. But the swimming part I think my handwave hit a metal pole.

As my father would say. "I gots nothin'."