hypocratus wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:09 pm
Regarding android usage in Picard. Maybe this is in the show, I haven't seen it yet, but wasn't the main place, maybe the only place, the shipyards on Mars. I wonder if the only reason they had to use androids was because they had to build a massive relief convoy of ships in a short time. Which, if true, really makes some other things in the show later seem even sillier.
It's all hand-waved so your guess is as good as anyone's who watched the show. For all we know, this army of androids working in the shipyard were re-assigned from more meaningful work as you suggest. I haven't stomached a rewatch of it so I don't recall if there was more specific information. The implication that I took away from it was that the use of androids in this manner was at least somewhat widespread (because the ban was as well), but also a rare thing that was still under R&D in a way that could be put into cold storage (which meant that it was somehow also experimental and relied on a single individual's work).
Building a coherent world from the plot beats in a show that is written from the finale backwards is always going to be a struggle.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:04 am
I think the primary advantage of a hologram is that they wouldn't affected by the environment nearly as much as a android. In that all you need to do is upload the hologram program into the holo emitters and only have to protect that equipment. Where as, you would have to protect all the androids.
Come to think about it, manufacturing would be easier too and quicker. Create one hologram program, copy and paste. Androids not so much.
Hologram still sounds like a bit more hassle than simply having the machinery you need in a fixed situation like a factory. The android is perhaps a bit more of a jack of all trades, master of none when going somewhere new and possibly unknown.
What you won't have is either operating machines - if you're going to do that then you're probably just going to put that AI in the machine itself.
Bear with me while I ask. "But would you really?"
On the surface what you are saying makes a ton of sense. Less developing a machine to use another machine. But lets look at say a bobcat. Simple multiuse tool for moving dirt and other sundry. It has some basic controls. And no sensors to show what it is doing. It is built with the intent that there will be a human in that seat working those controls and can see as well as understand the task it is doing and problem solve. To make a bobcat computer controlled you need to either retrofit a number of sensors all around the machine for all the areas that could be observed by a human. As well as the computer control replacing the controls. Many of which are hydraulic not electric. Or you basically have to build essentially a camera mount in the driver seat that can move to see as easily as a human operator.
Both of those ideas sound less than stellar as retrofits. You could build a custom machine from the ground up. But that would take time and effort as well as resources. And I say resources because the Federation is not exactly post scarcity. Or anyone could just have a lab and do as they wish. Or printout a starship as they desire. They don't so I think they are not quite there yet.
Which brings us back to robots. Many humanoid robots have been seen across the decades if not centuries. Soong style android bodies are known in function that Data could have been repaired practically anywhere now. So you have the body design, you just need to simple brain. And it can use all the tools you already have for humanoids.
This I think is the reason such would be used to implement this.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:04 am
I think the primary advantage of a hologram is that they wouldn't affected by the environment nearly as much as a android. In that all you need to do is upload the hologram program into the holo emitters and only have to protect that equipment. Where as, you would have to protect all the androids.
Come to think about it, manufacturing would be easier too and quicker. Create one hologram program, copy and paste. Androids not so much.
Hologram still sounds like a bit more hassle than simply having the machinery you need in a fixed situation like a factory. The android is perhaps a bit more of a jack of all trades, master of none when going somewhere new and possibly unknown.
What you won't have is either operating machines - if you're going to do that then you're probably just going to put that AI in the machine itself.
Bear with me while I ask. "But would you really?"
On the surface what you are saying makes a ton of sense. Less developing a machine to use another machine. But lets look at say a bobcat. Simple multiuse tool for moving dirt and other sundry. It has some basic controls. And no sensors to show what it is doing. It is built with the intent that there will be a human in that seat working those controls and can see as well as understand the task it is doing and problem solve. To make a bobcat computer controlled you need to either retrofit a number of sensors all around the machine for all the areas that could be observed by a human. As well as the computer control replacing the controls. Many of which are hydraulic not electric. Or you basically have to build essentially a camera mount in the driver seat that can move to see as easily as a human operator.
Both of those ideas sound less than stellar as retrofits. You could build a custom machine from the ground up. But that would take time and effort as well as resources. And I say resources because the Federation is not exactly post scarcity. Or anyone could just have a lab and do as they wish. Or printout a starship as they desire. They don't so I think they are not quite there yet.
Which brings us back to robots. Many humanoid robots have been seen across the decades if not centuries. Soong style android bodies are known in function that Data could have been repaired practically anywhere now. So you have the body design, you just need to simple brain. And it can use all the tools you already have for humanoids.
This I think is the reason such would be used to implement this.
It's not even realm of possibility right now for us to create construction vehicles. We really are not that far off. More far off when it comes to these industrial vehicles interacting with humans. Such as cranes to be laid at a specific point in a skyscraper 50 stories up dealing with wind from multiple directions.
It wouldn't surprise me that in Trek they use basically more advanced versions of Tesla tech to build their ships, which is humanoids over looking it all. Also wouldn't surprise me if Starfleet prefers actual humanoids to oversee the major stuff like installing a nacelle to a pylon.
It's not even realm of possibility right now for us to create construction vehicles. We really are not that far off. More far off when it comes to these industrial vehicles interacting with humans. Such as cranes to be laid at a specific point in a skyscraper 50 stories up dealing with wind from multiple directions.
It wouldn't surprise me that in Trek they use basically more advanced versions of Tesla tech to build their ships, which is humanoids over looking it all. Also wouldn't surprise me if Starfleet prefers actual humanoids to oversee the major stuff like installing a nacelle to a pylon.
If I am following your point properly. I think six of one half dozen of the other. We have seen huge arms working on ships. But we have also seen workers installing and wiring consoles and the like.
When Voyager built the Delta Flyer they seemed to basically assemble her by hand. Yes it was a shuttle bay and not a shipyard. But they also didn't seem put off that they could not just replicate an entire shuttle in one go.
Sorry extrapolating Trek construction techniques from the little they do show is an interesting exercise in frustration.
Personally I think the closest they (the Federation) came to purpose built workers previously was the exo-comps. Utilitarian device with the ability produce the tool needed for the job at hand. . And like most Trek tech they managed to make it sentient by accident.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:04 am
I think the primary advantage of a hologram is that they wouldn't affected by the environment nearly as much as a android. In that all you need to do is upload the hologram program into the holo emitters and only have to protect that equipment. Where as, you would have to protect all the androids.
Come to think about it, manufacturing would be easier too and quicker. Create one hologram program, copy and paste. Androids not so much.
Hologram still sounds like a bit more hassle than simply having the machinery you need in a fixed situation like a factory. The android is perhaps a bit more of a jack of all trades, master of none when going somewhere new and possibly unknown.
What you won't have is either operating machines - if you're going to do that then you're probably just going to put that AI in the machine itself.
Bear with me while I ask. "But would you really?"
On the surface what you are saying makes a ton of sense. Less developing a machine to use another machine. But lets look at say a bobcat. Simple multiuse tool for moving dirt and other sundry. It has some basic controls. And no sensors to show what it is doing. It is built with the intent that there will be a human in that seat working those controls and can see as well as understand the task it is doing and problem solve. To make a bobcat computer controlled you need to either retrofit a number of sensors all around the machine for all the areas that could be observed by a human. As well as the computer control replacing the controls. Many of which are hydraulic not electric. Or you basically have to build essentially a camera mount in the driver seat that can move to see as easily as a human operator.
Both of those ideas sound less than stellar as retrofits. You could build a custom machine from the ground up. But that would take time and effort as well as resources. And I say resources because the Federation is not exactly post scarcity. Or anyone could just have a lab and do as they wish. Or printout a starship as they desire. They don't so I think they are not quite there yet.
Just look how things are now. Cars are built with all sorts of parking sensors, reversing cameras and so on (most of which I find rather absurd, but that's beside the point), even though they're not retrofitted to old ones very often. None of the ideas for self-driving cars involve building a machine to drop in to the driver's seat of an existing car and getting it to drive it.Does building a self-controlling machine use more resources than a non-self controlling machine and a robot to control it?
McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:04 am
I think the primary advantage of a hologram is that they wouldn't affected by the environment nearly as much as a android. In that all you need to do is upload the hologram program into the holo emitters and only have to protect that equipment. Where as, you would have to protect all the androids.
Come to think about it, manufacturing would be easier too and quicker. Create one hologram program, copy and paste. Androids not so much.
Hologram still sounds like a bit more hassle than simply having the machinery you need in a fixed situation like a factory. The android is perhaps a bit more of a jack of all trades, master of none when going somewhere new and possibly unknown.
What you won't have is either operating machines - if you're going to do that then you're probably just going to put that AI in the machine itself.
Bear with me while I ask. "But would you really?"
On the surface what you are saying makes a ton of sense. Less developing a machine to use another machine. But lets look at say a bobcat. Simple multiuse tool for moving dirt and other sundry. It has some basic controls. And no sensors to show what it is doing. It is built with the intent that there will be a human in that seat working those controls and can see as well as understand the task it is doing and problem solve. To make a bobcat computer controlled you need to either retrofit a number of sensors all around the machine for all the areas that could be observed by a human. As well as the computer control replacing the controls. Many of which are hydraulic not electric. Or you basically have to build essentially a camera mount in the driver seat that can move to see as easily as a human operator.
Both of those ideas sound less than stellar as retrofits. You could build a custom machine from the ground up. But that would take time and effort as well as resources. And I say resources because the Federation is not exactly post scarcity. Or anyone could just have a lab and do as they wish. Or printout a starship as they desire. They don't so I think they are not quite there yet.
Just look how things are now. Cars are built with all sorts of parking sensors, reversing cameras and so on (most of which I find rather absurd, but that's beside the point), even though they're not retrofitted to old ones very often. None of the ideas for self-driving cars involve building a machine to drop in to the driver's seat of an existing car and getting it to drive it.Does building a self-controlling machine use more resources than a non-self controlling machine and a robot to control it?
Interesting question. And I will tell you I won't get into a current generation self driving car. There are still too many bugs that they do not fail to safe on. They go 'I don't know what that means' and blaze through obstacles.
That out of the way. Current rules prohibit this. So the various sensors have to be mounted in various locations so that there can be a person placed in the control seat. And currently is it very expensive, not as good as a human operator. And is only for getting from point A to point B. Not a dynamic area like mining or construction of something as complex as a starship.
Counter argument, but computers in Trek are better. Apparently not that much better because we don't see them using them in this fashion. They need to go through the entire design and construction. Prototyping and development for this equipment.
Soong style androids have already had this done.
Let me give a parallel. When the drone system was setup and we put drones flying over the middle east and the controllers were in rooms in California. They did not invent and design a new controller. They used Xbox controllers, because all that had already been done.
They've recently started showing Andromeda on UK TV again and I had forgotten tbh just how much I loved this show - or rather, how much I am loving it as we are still in season 2.
Anyway, watching this reinforces my belief just how much the Federation is missing out on with its strange views on AI. The Andromeda Ascendant is just a fundamentally more useful ship than the Enterprise because it has an AI capable of flying a squadron of unmanned drones, land mechs and thousands of worker androids that are capable of replacing the crew. And that is before we even get into the advantages of Andromeda's android avatar. This Systems Commonwealth was on track to becoming The Culture. (Amusingly enough, you can argue that the Nietzschens corroborate the Federation's view on genetic engineering but there you go).
Y'know... the idea of the secret Romulan faction in ''Picard'' that fights to prevent AI is an interesting retcon. Just as the idea of everyone in the galaxy looks human because the galaxy was seeded by a progenitor race millions of years ago is an interesting retcon. But I think when it comes to what TVTropes calls ''Zeerust'', Star Trek really does look old now with its fully manual ships. The future is aiming to remove the majority of humans from decision making period.
It's not even realm of possibility right now for us to create construction vehicles. We really are not that far off. More far off when it comes to these industrial vehicles interacting with humans. Such as cranes to be laid at a specific point in a skyscraper 50 stories up dealing with wind from multiple directions.
It wouldn't surprise me that in Trek they use basically more advanced versions of Tesla tech to build their ships, which is humanoids over looking it all. Also wouldn't surprise me if Starfleet prefers actual humanoids to oversee the major stuff like installing a nacelle to a pylon.
If I am following your point properly. I think six of one half dozen of the other. We have seen huge arms working on ships. But we have also seen workers installing and wiring consoles and the like.
When Voyager built the Delta Flyer they seemed to basically assemble her by hand. Yes it was a shuttle bay and not a shipyard. But they also didn't seem put off that they could not just replicate an entire shuttle in one go.
Sorry extrapolating Trek construction techniques from the little they do show is an interesting exercise in frustration.
Personally I think the closest they (the Federation) came to purpose built workers previously was the exo-comps. Utilitarian device with the ability produce the tool needed for the job at hand. . And like most Trek tech they managed to make it sentient by accident.
The problem is that we have never seen a ship under active construction with the exception of an accelerated scene at the end of Star Trek Beyond and that doesn't really show us who is operating the machines. And it's not Primeverse either.
At best I think is the holodecks program Geordie brought up when he needed to talk to one of the designers of the Galaxy class. In that hologram we saw the presumably the Enterprise still under construction.
This may count, but we did see the NX-02 Columbia being constructed in Enterprise. Her nacelles for example being held by mechanical arms. We are not sure if this is being controlled by humans or a machine.
The other thing about Star Trek construction, they are built like naval ships of old. As in built like piece by piece, from the bottom up. Whereas modern naval ships are for the most part, specifically the big ones are built in modules elsewhere and then assembled in that dock.
It's not even realm of possibility right now for us to create construction vehicles. We really are not that far off. More far off when it comes to these industrial vehicles interacting with humans. Such as cranes to be laid at a specific point in a skyscraper 50 stories up dealing with wind from multiple directions.
It wouldn't surprise me that in Trek they use basically more advanced versions of Tesla tech to build their ships, which is humanoids over looking it all. Also wouldn't surprise me if Starfleet prefers actual humanoids to oversee the major stuff like installing a nacelle to a pylon.
If I am following your point properly. I think six of one half dozen of the other. We have seen huge arms working on ships. But we have also seen workers installing and wiring consoles and the like.
When Voyager built the Delta Flyer they seemed to basically assemble her by hand. Yes it was a shuttle bay and not a shipyard. But they also didn't seem put off that they could not just replicate an entire shuttle in one go.
Sorry extrapolating Trek construction techniques from the little they do show is an interesting exercise in frustration.
Personally I think the closest they (the Federation) came to purpose built workers previously was the exo-comps. Utilitarian device with the ability produce the tool needed for the job at hand. . And like most Trek tech they managed to make it sentient by accident.
The problem is that we have never seen a ship under active construction with the exception of an accelerated scene at the end of Star Trek Beyond and that doesn't really show us who is operating the machines. And it's not Primeverse either.
At best I think is the holodecks program Geordie brought up when he needed to talk to one of the designers of the Galaxy class. In that hologram we saw the presumably the Enterprise still under construction.
This may count, but we did see the NX-02 Columbia being constructed in Enterprise. Her nacelles for example being held by mechanical arms. We are not sure if this is being controlled by humans or a machine.
The other thing about Star Trek construction, they are built like naval ships of old. As in built like piece by piece, from the bottom up. Whereas modern naval ships are for the most part, specifically the big ones are built in modules elsewhere and then assembled in that dock.
If we assume the ST: Beyond is at least on par with fleet construction. Then a bit of both on modules and built from the ground up.
It just really seems like they do most construction personally.
And thought of an off the cuff example. Jadzia in one episode talked about using a runabout to catch another one. And how if the engineers at the shipyard were having a good day the runabout would hold. After when the plan worked she asked to be reminded to send them a nice note.
You don't have to consider engineers build by build for an assembly line vehicle.
Nealithi wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:55 am
And thought of an off the cuff example. Jadzia in one episode talked about using a runabout to catch another one. And how if the engineers at the shipyard were having a good day the runabout would hold. After when the plan worked she asked to be reminded to send them a nice note.
You don't have to consider engineers build by build for an assembly line vehicle.
Back to cars these days but you get good and bad examples of the same assembly line vehicle, largely - but not entirely - built by robots. The fewer the number of something the more manual involvement there's likely to be, so I wouldn't be too surprised if even in the Federation there are still people putting some of the wiring in for example when it comes to the limited number of major starships, and perhaps even more commonplace spacecraft.
That said the automated shuttle production line must be hidden somewhere withing Voyager.
