ENT - The Xindi

[Fianna]

"Pure logic", by itself, is nothing.

Logic is the process of taking certain premises and extrapolating further truths from them. It can only produce anything if you give it a starting premise to work with.

[Nealithi]

Thing is Trek keeps trying to paint Vulcans as more computer than computer. Then putting in, for lack of a better term, humanizing elements.

Chuck has even pointed out in episodes like Galileo Seven. Spock chose to detonate the fuel stores on the shuttle as a flare once they were in space. Everyone accused him of being 'emotional'. But that was simple logic to alter the odds ever so slightly closer to being found.

Personally I don't think anyone on the Enterprise, any Enterprise, was without some logic. The only people that seem devoid of logic we call 'Karens'.

So I think the problem of Vulcans is they keep being stated to follow pure logic. But don't. They follow strict control of outward emotions. Not 'logic'.

[TGLS]

Personally I don't think anyone on the Enterprise, any Enterprise, was without some logic. The only people that seem devoid of logic we call 'Karens'.

OK, how about Voyager? Ho ho ho.

[Nealithi]

Personally I don't think anyone on the Enterprise, any Enterprise, was without some logic. The only people that seem devoid of logic we call 'Karens'.

OK, how about Voyager? Ho ho ho.

If I have to weigh Voyager I have to do as Chuck does and weigh it on its own. That means that again they do try to reason. Often the script is so bad the answer keeps resolving to shoot it with a phaser.
But I can actually do things like defend Torres not identifying manure. How many places is that common at this time? She has a vehicle that should not be there at all. She was doing an analysis to determine if the object was a replica or some form of trap. She is part way through chemical analysis when Janeway jumped ahead and declared it was manure. Why does this defense have any meaning. Litmus test an unknown brown liquid. Highly acidic. By many definitions that is a hazmat protocol. Oh yeah, it was cola. Literal chemical analysis may take time that a leap in knowledge can shortcut. It happens.
The reactions to the truck backfiring? The security officer drew a weapon upon hearing a harsh unknown and unexpected sound? Believe it or not I like that here. Because I think Season one and two Picard would have chastised Worf for that.

So many episodes that can be logically explained they do the same thing they did in Galileo Seven. Tuvok has to put maquis through Star Fleet basic. He does not have the full facilities one would have at the academy so he adapts the physical training as best he can. Does it seem dickish he upped the gravity in the running area? Yes. But if that is something they do at the academy then it is logical for him to do so as well because it is how he was trained and how he was shown to be an instructor. The send his students away while he put himself at risk to save a trapped crewman? That was the height of what being in Starfleet is about. Being heroic is part of the job. But as their commander he cannot put his people in harms way without cause. He had the most chance of success physically and by training. And by sending them away they can get assistance since communicators were down. But like Galileo Seven they treat his logical choice as an emotional reaction and not cold logic.

[CrypticMirror]

Tuvok fails to make the adjustment from training willing volunteers like in Starfleet to training unwilling conscripts, which is what the Maquis on Voyager are.

[Riedquat]

"Pure logic", by itself, is nothing.

Logic is the process of taking certain premises and extrapolating further truths from them. It can only produce anything if you give it a starting premise to work with.

Spot on (at least if you're not just dealing with a purely logic problem - although you need a premise from somewhere else to have a reason to do so).

[Madner Kami]

Tuvok fails to make the adjustment from training willing volunteers like in Starfleet to training unwilling conscripts, which is what the Maquis on Voyager are.

They could have left the ship at any point. They choose to stay and they choose to be part of the crew instead of just being passengers.

[CrypticMirror]

Tuvok fails to make the adjustment from training willing volunteers like in Starfleet to training unwilling conscripts, which is what the Maquis on Voyager are.

They could have left the ship at any point. They choose to stay and they choose to be part of the crew instead of just being passengers.

That's like saying, in the age of sail, pressed sailors could just jump overboard mid-Atlantic.

[Madner Kami]

It is not. I didn't suggest spacing them. They had the choice to build up new lives on alien worlds or tried to get back to the alpha quadrant on their own terms. They choose to stay on Voyager.

[Nealithi]

It is not. I didn't suggest spacing them. They had the choice to build up new lives on alien worlds or tried to get back to the alpha quadrant on their own terms. They choose to stay on Voyager.

Back on their own terms? By what swimming in space without a space suit?
The Maquis vessel was destroyed, they had no other means available. They can go home or be in permanent exile.
Phrase it simply for yourself. You are in the middle of the Pacific on a US Navy destroyer. As a civilian. You can work with the crew or? There is nothing around. The ship will get back eventually. But you did not ask to be in the US Navy. The Navy and this ship specifically had been hunting you down right before this. For the crime of trying to defend your home from people willing to plant bombs and poisons in your food stores. Now how willing a recruit are you really?
Start a new life on a random island. What you and the three other men? That is not starting a new home. That is a lonely exile.
Head back on their own. Again their ship was destroyed. so dropped at random port with no resources to try and get any kind of vessel that can carry you?

No this sounds too much like my aunt you said if someone puts a gun to your head to compel you to do anything tell them to shoot is the only correct answer.

Yet the Voyager situation was not a bad as a gun to the head. There were not any other good options. Why did Chakotay agree to the ship being a Starfleet vessel? Ignoring that his handful of rebels were not overpowering the crew of the Voyager. A ship needs discipline and skill to work. Doubly so for a ship as complex as a starship like Voyager. So better to integrate and work for mutual survival. But Chakotay's crew did not volunteer, they did not get information for an informed choice. It is what was decided and mostly it was the right choice.

But they were not volunteer recruits at the academy with top marks across fields just to be allowed to enter in the first place.

Now you get my favorite Spock quote. "I understand, I do not approve."
Tuvok was wrong in his expectations from the Maquis crew. Both in how they handled tasks and how to train them. There are good reasons the Maquis did the things they did the way they did. That does not mean that Starfleet ships do things differently for no reason. The Maquis ships were small and often well used before they got them. Things failing needed to be fixed first and permission later. Because a delay could kill them. A Federation Starship would require the call in even if you were just going to dive in and save the ship. So those around you know there is an issue if you fail. And what those power losses and the like meant. Both points of view are valid in context. But not in the opposite's area.
Also the Bolian told to lose the medallion? It is a safety issue and had no merit other than decoration he liked. He can wear it all he likes out of uniform. But on duty it is gone. The Bajoran d'ja pagh however is a religious item and according to Starfleet regulation is permitted in uniform as it does not interfere with duties. (So everyone ragging on Bajorans about it comes off as a bit prejudiced against Bajorans.)

And this is getting long again. . .

Edits for spelling.