Autonomous Truck Completes driverless run

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Nealithi
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Re: Autonomous Truck Completes driverless run

Post by Nealithi »

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:35 pm
Nealithi wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:28 pm This is an aside. But the last two pages of this thread have really achieved a first for me. Well since I became an adult.
In the past two pages you guys have made me feel stupid.

I can read the words but following all the implications is actually giving me a headache. I am not saying any one of you is wrong. But that getting into colonizing and India vs Russia and the growth of the modern world economically has gone so far over my head I am waiting for the plane to de-orbit.
What do you want to know?
I want to understand. Like I said I understand the words. (Unlike reading a legal document) But I don't know the history of the colonization of India or the rise and fall of the czars. Nor more than a spec of the coming of industrialization.
I tried to take World History in high school to get a better grasp on things. But the teacher had us put the books away and taught evolution instead. Okay fine, but how does Java man and Cro magnon man influence the Roman church and the Spanish work of the Caribbean? What actually happened with Napoleon? No please don't put on the Count of Monte Cristo movie again.

Hence I don't have the background to understand what is being said. You folk talk about a show I have not watched, well I don't know it I stay out of it. You speak on something I do know something I put in a comment or conversation. The history of money has gone so far over my head to make me feel like I am a child sitting on the carpet of the living room watching my parents discussing the news.
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: Autonomous Truck Completes driverless run

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

Nealithi wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:36 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:35 pm
Nealithi wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:28 pm This is an aside. But the last two pages of this thread have really achieved a first for me. Well since I became an adult.
In the past two pages you guys have made me feel stupid.

I can read the words but following all the implications is actually giving me a headache. I am not saying any one of you is wrong. But that getting into colonizing and India vs Russia and the growth of the modern world economically has gone so far over my head I am waiting for the plane to de-orbit.
What do you want to know?
I want to understand. Like I said I understand the words. (Unlike reading a legal document) But I don't know the history of the colonization of India or the rise and fall of the czars. Nor more than a spec of the coming of industrialization.
I tried to take World History in high school to get a better grasp on things. But the teacher had us put the books away and taught evolution instead. Okay fine, but how does Java man and Cro magnon man influence the Roman church and the Spanish work of the Caribbean? What actually happened with Napoleon? No please don't put on the Count of Monte Cristo movie again.

Hence I don't have the background to understand what is being said. You folk talk about a show I have not watched, well I don't know it I stay out of it. You speak on something I do know something I put in a comment or conversation. The history of money has gone so far over my head to make me feel like I am a child sitting on the carpet of the living room watching my parents discussing the news.
Understanding is more a state of being. That's why I emphasized the word "want," referring to what we were talking about. Notice how, in your principal response, you said, "I want to understand." And we preemptively arrive at my question: What do you want to know?

From what I gather, you want to understand the last 2 pages. That's about as far as we understand your grasp on the situation.
..What mirror universe?
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phantom000
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Re: Autonomous Truck Completes driverless run

Post by phantom000 »

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:51 pm I don't think the distinction of capital and liquidity is the issue.

Liquidity is just money (or ultimately fungible assets), but very specifically money, and not really termed for social concentration of wealth but the singular product manufactured by society designed specifically to change hands (and deteriorate in value as a natural course of population growth).
Liquidity, is not money. Liquidity deals with how easy it is to sell goods or services within a particular market. The Mortgage Crisis of 2008 was caused when the housing market suddenly lost most of its liquidity. The crisis wasn't that people couldn't buy a house, but because the banks couldn't sell a house. The banks were stuck with a bunch of physical assets (in this case houses) they could not convert into liquid capital (i.e. money) so a lot of their available capital just vanished.
Capital is a slightly more parent term and denotes the more mathematical type framing of an economic/commercial valued substance. Capital reference includes money and fungible assets at its most base but also what that money turns into as a manifestation of one's operation with more specific terms of structure and human variables.
I'm not an economics major, but in economics capital is all the stuff that you need to provide goods or services, but otherwise has no value in and off itself. Like a 3D printer, it can be valuable, but only because it can produce things for you, otherwise it's just a fancy looking box.
Wealth, as the main issue of conflict, is an issue from the outset. Feudal monarchies had wealth in the hands of more permanent caste structures of people that would pretty much just hold land in their families until the end of time, under rule of shifting rulers and an ever stagnant population of mass servants.
A caste structure that was established to overcome the low liquidity in their economy. How do run a government, of any kind, in a situation where even the top 1% might now have any cash money and the 99% produce just enough goods and services to keep themselves and their families from starving? Labor was what most kingdoms relied on because it was the only thing readily available. Remember that this applied to the lords as well as the peasants, in fact one could argue the only difference was a serf was expected to grow food for the king while a knight was expected to slaughter the king's enemies but both are a form of labor collected by the monarch.

The key polarity here, is that while Britain focused a lot more on microdevelopment of its economic infrastructure, Germany had a much more stronger sense of unification and followed an intellectual pursuit and became the heaviest market in Europe.
The point I was trying to make is that it was easier for the British because most of their population was concentrated into a fairly small area. Russia had more people but they were spread out over an area that dwarfed England and most European countries. The first commercial railroad in England connected what are now suburbs of the greater London area and was about 14 kilometers in length. The first Russian railroad linked St. Petersburg and the Czar's palace almost 20 kilometers away, and that was considered an 'experimental line.' It shows the difficulties the Russian's faced when trying to industrialize because their population was so spread out that just trying to get goods to a ready market was an investment of itself.
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Re: Autonomous Truck Completes driverless run

Post by phantom000 »

Nealithi wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:36 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:35 pm
Nealithi wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:28 pm This is an aside. But the last two pages of this thread have really achieved a first for me. Well since I became an adult.
In the past two pages you guys have made me feel stupid.

I can read the words but following all the implications is actually giving me a headache. I am not saying any one of you is wrong. But that getting into colonizing and India vs Russia and the growth of the modern world economically has gone so far over my head I am waiting for the plane to de-orbit.
What do you want to know?
I want to understand. Like I said I understand the words. (Unlike reading a legal document) But I don't know the history of the colonization of India or the rise and fall of the czars. Nor more than a spec of the coming of industrialization.
I tried to take World History in high school to get a better grasp on things. But the teacher had us put the books away and taught evolution instead. Okay fine, but how does Java man and Cro magnon man influence the Roman church and the Spanish work of the Caribbean? What actually happened with Napoleon? No please don't put on the Count of Monte Cristo movie again.

Hence I don't have the background to understand what is being said. You folk talk about a show I have not watched, well I don't know it I stay out of it. You speak on something I do know something I put in a comment or conversation. The history of money has gone so far over my head to make me feel like I am a child sitting on the carpet of the living room watching my parents discussing the news.
Niall Ferguson did a series for the BBC called The Ascent of Money it deals with how different aspects of the modern financial system evolved and the role they played in world events. He does a pretty good job of explaining things like 'liquidity' and 'security' for non-specialists. I think it was still on YouTube if you would like to check it out.
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Madner Kami
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Re: Autonomous Truck Completes driverless run

Post by Madner Kami »

phantom000 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:42 pmThe banks were stuck with a bunch of physical assets (in this case houses) they could not convert into liquid capital (i.e. money) so a lot of their available capital just vanished.
I know what you want to say, but the capital didn't vanish. They still have those houses and properties (unless they liquidated them by selling them off to some debt collector, but then the capital hasn't vanished as it's still in the posession of the debt-collectors), their capital was "just" massively devalued (or rather re-evaluated to a less fantastic real-value).
phantom000 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:42 pmThe point I was trying to make is that it was easier for the British because most of their population was concentrated into a fairly small area. Russia had more people but they were spread out over an area that dwarfed England and most European countries. The first commercial railroad in England connected what are now suburbs of the greater London area and was about 14 kilometers in length. The first Russian railroad linked St. Petersburg and the Czar's palace almost 20 kilometers away, and that was considered an 'experimental line.' It shows the difficulties the Russian's faced when trying to industrialize because their population was so spread out that just trying to get goods to a ready market was an investment of itself.
Absolutely correct. The Russians had a lot of capital at their hands. Real property, raw materials and workforce (the famed human capital). Their issue was, that their capital wasn't liquid and locally bound and the means to liquidize their capital needed liquid capital in the first place and loads of it, due to the distances and lack of density involved, which stiffled their development doubly (a simple train-track will need a lot of investement and this will bind capital locally again, which you then can't use elsewhere). And this is true even today still. Just compare pretty much any russian city to a russian village. You'll not be able to really distinguish a russian city from a western city, but you'll feel as if you are in the 1700s as soon as you leave the outskirts of said cities, were it not for the overland electricity lines and satellite dishes.
Nealithi wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:28 pm This is an aside. But the last two pages of this thread have really achieved a first for me. Well since I became an adult.
In the past two pages you guys have made me feel stupid.

I can read the words but following all the implications is actually giving me a headache. I am not saying any one of you is wrong. But that getting into colonizing and India vs Russia and the growth of the modern world economically has gone so far over my head I am waiting for the plane to de-orbit.

[...]

I want to understand. Like I said I understand the words. (Unlike reading a legal document) But I don't know the history of the colonization of India or the rise and fall of the czars. Nor more than a spec of the coming of industrialization.
I tried to take World History in high school to get a better grasp on things. But the teacher had us put the books away and taught evolution instead. Okay fine, but how does Java man and Cro magnon man influence the Roman church and the Spanish work of the Caribbean? What actually happened with Napoleon? No please don't put on the Count of Monte Cristo movie again.

Hence I don't have the background to understand what is being said. You folk talk about a show I have not watched, well I don't know it I stay out of it. You speak on something I do know something I put in a comment or conversation. The history of money has gone so far over my head to make me feel like I am a child sitting on the carpet of the living room watching my parents discussing the news.
World history is an infinitely complex field and once you delve into it, every new fact or facet you learn will make you re-evaluate the conclusions you've come to before. Nothing ever happens in a vacuum and nothing happens just because of just one reason and so there's no "starting point" in sight anywhere. It is overwhelming by nature and I think that is true for everyone who actually tries to get an understanding. You're not alone. We've just been here longer than you.
"If you get shot up by an A6M Reisen and your plane splits into pieces - does that mean it's divided by Zero?
- xoxSAUERKRAUTxox
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Re: Autonomous Truck Completes driverless run

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

NEIN! NEIN! NEIN!
..What mirror universe?
Fuzzy Necromancer
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Re: Autonomous Truck Completes driverless run

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

Madner Kami wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:16 pm
Riedquat wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:10 pmAnd how many other developments has it "stifled" because they looked like they wouldn't pay off, because there probably wouldn't be any real use for them? How do you avoid wasting resources developing medicines that won't do many people much good? Sometimes you'll get it wrong - no system is perfect, no system has a crystal ball, but that's not a good argument against capitalism.

We do, however, need to avoid going to extremes - yet again. 100% commercially-driven interests alone - not good. The increasing commercialisation of academia concerns me.
And that's where government-control comes into it. It's not a failure of capitalism when people starve right next to rich people. It's not the failure of capitalism if medicine or treatment isn't developed because it's not profitable. The economic system is doing exactly what it's meant to do: Funnel money to where it creates more money. It's the failure of the government (and society not putting enough pressure to it) to not skim off the top to raise the bottom-line. It works for Europe.
How can you see those as capitalism functioning as intended without taking the next step and seeing capitalism as an evil system? I'm gobsmacked.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
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Re: Autonomous Truck Completes driverless run

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

Riedquat wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:10 pm
And how many other developments has it "stifled" because they looked like they wouldn't pay off, because there probably wouldn't be any real use for them? How do you avoid wasting resources developing medicines that won't do many people much good? Sometimes you'll get it wrong - no system is perfect, no system has a crystal ball, but that's not a good argument against capitalism.
Saying "no system is perfect" can just as easily be used to defend absolute monarchy. As defenses of capitalism go it's a pretty sad one.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
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Re: Autonomous Truck Completes driverless run

Post by Madner Kami »

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:58 am
Madner Kami wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:16 pm
Riedquat wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:10 pmAnd how many other developments has it "stifled" because they looked like they wouldn't pay off, because there probably wouldn't be any real use for them? How do you avoid wasting resources developing medicines that won't do many people much good? Sometimes you'll get it wrong - no system is perfect, no system has a crystal ball, but that's not a good argument against capitalism.

We do, however, need to avoid going to extremes - yet again. 100% commercially-driven interests alone - not good. The increasing commercialisation of academia concerns me.
And that's where government-control comes into it. It's not a failure of capitalism when people starve right next to rich people. It's not the failure of capitalism if medicine or treatment isn't developed because it's not profitable. The economic system is doing exactly what it's meant to do: Funnel money to where it creates more money. It's the failure of the government (and society not putting enough pressure to it) to not skim off the top to raise the bottom-line. It works for Europe.
How can you see those as capitalism functioning as intended without taking the next step and seeing capitalism as an evil system? I'm gobsmacked.
Because it isn't an evil system. I'd really love it, If you went back a few pages and actually read what I write. As I said before, it's a tool and that tool can do evil if it isn't used correctly or responsibly. Making morality-calls simply isn't the job of any economic system. That is the job of governments and the people.
"If you get shot up by an A6M Reisen and your plane splits into pieces - does that mean it's divided by Zero?
- xoxSAUERKRAUTxox
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Re: Autonomous Truck Completes driverless run

Post by Draco Dracul »

Madner Kami wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:52 am
Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:58 am
Madner Kami wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:16 pm
Riedquat wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:10 pmAnd how many other developments has it "stifled" because they looked like they wouldn't pay off, because there probably wouldn't be any real use for them? How do you avoid wasting resources developing medicines that won't do many people much good? Sometimes you'll get it wrong - no system is perfect, no system has a crystal ball, but that's not a good argument against capitalism.

We do, however, need to avoid going to extremes - yet again. 100% commercially-driven interests alone - not good. The increasing commercialisation of academia concerns me.
And that's where government-control comes into it. It's not a failure of capitalism when people starve right next to rich people. It's not the failure of capitalism if medicine or treatment isn't developed because it's not profitable. The economic system is doing exactly what it's meant to do: Funnel money to where it creates more money. It's the failure of the government (and society not putting enough pressure to it) to not skim off the top to raise the bottom-line. It works for Europe.
How can you see those as capitalism functioning as intended without taking the next step and seeing capitalism as an evil system? I'm gobsmacked.
Because it isn't an evil system. I'd really love it, If you went back a few pages and actually read what I write. As I said before, it's a tool and that tool can do evil if it isn't used correctly or responsibly. Making morality-calls simply isn't the job of any economic system. That is the job of governments and the people.
Could you give examples of how it could be used for good? Because as a system it's designed to funnel wealth away the masses and to the few.

I admit that I'm probably going to be harder to convince of the value of capitalism than even most other communists because I believe capitalism is a profound metaphysical evil that was created by the devil to danm mankind. It is the Beast of the biblical revolution.
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