Lower deck episode 3?

[CharlesPhipps]

This is one of the things I've seen people endesly debate online and I really wish we had clarity on, Mariner's age.

My personal opinion is that she is supposed to be near the other characters Boimler and co age, just that she got into Starfleet real early like Wesley early plus she spent time on the Enterprise D since Freeman was heavily implied to have served there.

That would account for most of her practical experience and I think it makes for a good character arc a burnt out prodigy now a slacker finding her drive again.

Sadly they just keep on pilling more and more I was there to her backstory perhaps wanting her really to be like 10 or more years older than her friends.

Which imho would make her actions with Boimler more toxic than I would think they want a main character to be.

They actually messed with this by revealing in a later episode that while Mariner did do a lot of things, she is, in fact, padding her resume.

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

This is one of the things I've seen people endesly debate online and I really wish we had clarity on, Mariner's age.

My personal opinion is that she is supposed to be near the other characters Boimler and co age, just that she got into Starfleet real early like Wesley early plus she spent time on the Enterprise D since Freeman was heavily implied to have served there.

That would account for most of her practical experience and I think it makes for a good character arc a burnt out prodigy now a slacker finding her drive again.

Sadly they just keep on pilling more and more I was there to her backstory perhaps wanting her really to be like 10 or more years older than her friends.

Which imho would make her actions with Boimler more toxic than I would think they want a main character to be.

They actually messed with this by revealing in a later episode that while Mariner did do a lot of things, she is, in fact, padding her resume.

Yes they did outright confirm Mariner intentionally obfuscates and spreads stories about herself, but I think they're sort of still hedging their bets (I've been up front I'd much rather have an Mariner who is close in age to her friends rather than one that actually did serve at X and Y)

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

Mariner appears to have started her actual Starfleet carreer in 2372 with a posting on DS9. Starfleet's Academy program runs for 4 years and presuming she started her education at the same age as Wesley, that means she joined the Academy in 2368 at the age of 16, which means she was born in 2352. That makes her exactly 30 years old by 2382. This must be her minimum age.

I'm weary of using that flashback to set up the chronology of the series, the events they are talking about are clear and we know the dates for them, but I could easily imagine scenarios where a certain incident happened years ago but is still "fresh gossip" (it having been labeled classified or etc).

[BBally81]

The full motion video is blocked. So I'm going to have to watch the still version.

[Formless One]

re: Mariner's age VS her appearance, you have to be careful about using appearances as your yardstick because this is an animated series, and it seems to me like the show is really using visual cues not to show age, but to distinguish the command staff from everyone else. An actual age cue would be Captain Freeman's streak of gray hair, but body types and facial structure is all over the place, with most of the crew looking not too dissimilar from Boimler or Tendi (and do we know exactly how Orions age? Season 2 hinted Tendi has more past in her past than she lets on, after all). Rutherford is unusually stocky compared to most of the crew, being beaten out only by Shaxs for biggest body type on the ship (...not counting the beluga officers, of course). So clearly Mariner is within the expected age range for a Starfleet Ensign. Remember how Picard's life could have gone if he didn't get stabbed in the back in his twenties? Lieutenant Junior Grade at the age of 60. He made Harry Kim look like he was going places.

And if we don't account for artistic license for this being animated, she could still look plausibly like she was around the same age as Boimler when she isn't. I'm in my early 30's and strangers still mistake me for a senior in high school all the time. I'm not kidding. Somehow my face and body type takes more than ten years off me in the eyes of the general public, unless they stop and think about how many highschoolers they've met with a full beard. That's why bars, casinos and liquor stores need ID, because you can't always tell from looking at a person how old they are. Its also the basis for the common advice not to ask a woman their age. I can completely see Mariner being in her 30's, especially given the implications about her mother's age, and yet looking at a glance like she belongs in the same cohort as Rutherford and Boimler.

The scars also support her having a fairly long career and having seen combat on multiple occasions, even if she's prone to making up stories to impress people. Remember the second episode? She said that she knew the Klingon General because she did off the books Grey Ops work during the Dominion War. Grey Ops isn't what it sounds like, Grey Ops means psychological warfare or propaganda work. No doubt the joke is that Boimler, much like the majority of the audience, wouldn't realize that's what that meant and would assume she was doing covert ops with the General-- who notably didn't correct her, so her claim about doing such work has some evidence behind it. Probably she was stuck on a Klingon Bird of Prey cloaked somewhere near Cardassian space covertly broadcasting Federation propaganda to try and start an insurrection against the Dominion. Would also explain her posting on DS9 at the time-- and why she was never noticed by the DS9 regulars (it was supposed to be off the books, after all).

Even her having more energy than your typical 30 something is easily explained by Federation medical science. Remember, they considered Picard to be in the prime of life in his 60's, and McCoy was still alive to give the Enterprise D a visit in the first episode, remarking to Data that there should be nothing surprising about a man not dying. It shouldn't be that surprising if the same anti-aging technology allows even younger people to keep the energy of a twenty year old for longer as well.

As for her behavior, yeah, I concur with those who say age and maturity aren't always directly correlated. Its clear that something happened during her time as a Lieutenant that left her jaded with Starfleet (probably all that Grey Ops work-- nothing makes you lose more faith in the system than having to tell official lies on its behalf, like that Starfleet is winning a war it is most certainly losing ). So that alone covers a lot of it. She has no more f$#&s to give and that's taken a load off her shoulders. And as a loner, Mariner would have an easy time explaining why she doesn't always know what is considered hip among fresh to young ensigns who haven't yet realized that she has almost ten years of experience on them and used to hold the rank of Lieutenant. The rest probably have the same attitude as Jennifer Sh'reyan: "I don't think about you at all."

[CharlesPhipps]

Yes they did outright confirm Mariner intentionally obfuscates and spreads stories about herself, but I think they're sort of still hedging their bets (I've been up front I'd much rather have an Mariner who is close in age to her friends rather than one that actually did serve at X and Y)

I wouldn't be surprised if Mariner is about thirty but I think Boimler is about 25. None of them are teenagers despite how they act.

Mariner is just much more experienced than your typical Star fleet ensign (and her best friend from the Academy is a Captain now) and Boimler is much more sheltered. They're at the opposite extremes of what their positions demand.

They're still within an age range to be peers and friends.

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

Yes they did outright confirm Mariner intentionally obfuscates and spreads stories about herself, but I think they're sort of still hedging their bets (I've been up front I'd much rather have an Mariner who is close in age to her friends rather than one that actually did serve at X and Y)

I wouldn't be surprised if Mariner is about thirty but I think Boimler is about 25. None of them are teenagers despite how they act.

Mariner is just much more experienced than your typical Star fleet ensign (and her best friend from the Academy is a Captain now) and Boimler is much more sheltered. They're at the opposite extremes of what their positions demand.

They're still within an age range to be peers and friends.

Yeah 25 and 30 is something that would be ok.

A big part of why I wouldn't have Mariner be much older than your average ensign is: we've seen Mariner and Freeman fight a lot during the series Freeman just seems to me like she's trying to motivate her daughter like she still thinks she can clean up her act and get back into it, if Mariner is old enough that she would be a lost cause with her opportunities been past her I think Freeman would call her out on it.

tldr: Freeman acts like she's trying to motivate a burn out young professional going through a rough patch not like she's trying to push out a middle age adult that has been living in their parent's basements for years and life has passed them by.

[Deledrius]

tldr: Freeman acts like she's trying to motivate a burn out young professional going through a rough patch not like she's trying to push out a middle age adult that has been living in their parent's basements for years and life has passed them by.

Absolutely. I honestly think they're trying to have it both ways and are leaning on the excuse that if anyone questions it they're thinking about it too hard. Which might be a touch hypocritical if the writers are as big fans as they're supposed to be...

Admittedly, most of the time, it doesn't matter. There have been a few cases where it's suddenly highlighted how little sense it makes, and that's 100% on the show.

[CharlesPhipps]

Part of the issue is the "Mildly Military" element of Star Trek here in that once you're demoted in a RL military or even receive a reprimand, that's pretty much it for your career. You serve out your time and then you're gone from that point.

Mariner has apparently been promoted and demoted multiple times (we even see one on screen with an insult to an Admiral over the pronunciation sensors). Her friend also flatly wanted to promote her to COMMANDER which is apparently where her career SHOULD be at this point.

But yes, Mariner is young enough to be peers with the other Ensigns but also old enough to be Boimler's "mentor" which says to me there's perhaps enough room for a small age difference.

I do think Freeman actually thinks Mariner is a lost cause in terms of promotion but just doesn't want her flat out kicked out of Starfleet because she believes so passionately in it.

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

Part of the issue is the "Mildly Military" element of Star Trek here in that once you're demoted in a RL military or even receive a reprimand, that's pretty much it for your career. You serve out your time and then you're gone from that point.

Mariner has apparently been promoted and demoted multiple times (we even see one on screen with an insult to an Admiral over the pronunciation sensors). Her friend also flatly wanted to promote her to COMMANDER which is apparently where her career SHOULD be at this point.

But yes, Mariner is young enough to be peers with the other Ensigns but also old enough to be Boimler's "mentor" which says to me there's perhaps enough room for a small age difference.

I do think Freeman actually thinks Mariner is a lost cause in terms of promotion but just doesn't want her flat out kicked out of Starfleet because she believes so passionately in it.

What I understood from Ramsey was that she was offering Mariner the position of XO not the rank of commander, though in SF XO are often commanders so you might be right I admit I haven't watched that episode recently so I'm going off of memory.

Personal head canon is that Mariner if she hadn't been demoted would be a lieutenant (perhaps a lieutenant commander) because:
1) that's the rank Freeman bumps her up to when she places her on the senior staff (Freeman's scheme was based on Mariner's position and having her be in the senior staff not her rank specifically we've seen for example Harry be senior staff while an ensign so she didn't need to change her rank)
2) A brief exchange Mariner had with Tendi mentioned her trying to flirt with lieutenant's specifically and we briefly see a guy she went on 1 date once before deciding it wouldn't work and he was a lieutenant, my point being is she hangs around with a lot of lieutenants.
3) There's an episode coming up where Boimler gets a girlfriend, a young lieutenant and among the subtle mirroring between her and Mariner, Beckett specifically reacts amazed "she's a lieutenant?" as if it was a personal insult to herself.