Lower deck episode 3?

[MightyDavidson]

I still have my theory that Titan Boimler isn't actually a transporter clone. He's a deep cover Pakled spy. He's posing as a transporter clone as a way to bond with Riker over a shared experience, a relationship he will eventually take advantage of to get intelligence for his Pakled masters.

A Pakled wouldn't be smart enough to pull that off.

That's if you accept the idea that the Pakled are as dumb as they present themselves as. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's all just a ruse on some level to get people to underestimate them. Or that they're taking their marching orders from somebody a lot smarter then them.

I thought they were meant to be smarter than they appeared but they have since proven still to be very very dumb.

The show has been very clear in their portrayal of the Pakled, I thought. They're far more dangerous then then initially appeared and are capable of cleverness but they're still dumb as a sack of hammers, even with somebody giving them marching orders. Their one attempt at espionage was thwarted effortlessly after all plus every Pakled has been shown to be bigger then Boimler, so Boimler clone actually being a Pakled is unlikely.

[griffeytrek]

We've seen situations where the XO isn't a Commander before. Tilly is perhaps the most obvious parallel because she too was only ranked an Ensign when Saru made her XO. But Sisko was also given command of Defiant before he was even given the rank of Captain! His XO was Kira, a member of the Bajoran Militia, and held the rank of Major; traditionally that's equivalent to Lieutenant Commander by pay grade. Even after Worf enters the show he doesn't replace her as XO due to the politics between the Federation and Bajor, although during the war command of the Defiant would trade hands between Sisko, Worf, and Jadzia (depending on who was available and who was busy drafting plans with an admiral or general at the time).

I think part of the hangup is that Starfleet really isn't a military, even though it fights wars. I think it might be more appropriately compared to a militia instead. That might seem like splitting hairs, but its structure is subtly different than we're expecting. It has the military ranks, but not the military career path one might expect. Its pretty easy for an officer to switch departments, as shown by Rutherford casually doing so four times in a single episode, and while he only did it once, Worf also went from wearing a yellow security uniform to command red in order to join DS9 on a more permanent basis. He didn't change rank, but he certainly changed responsibilities dramatically in the process. A big emphasis is put on one's permanent record, certainly, but it looks like what they care about is the actions one took that lead to disciplinary action rather than the disciplinary action itself. Even the fact of getting demoted doesn't appear to necessarily be a punishment in all cases. In season 2, Boimler gets demoted from Lieutenant on the Titan back down to an Ensign on Cerritos as a result of his transporter clone accident, and the demotion seems to simply be a result of Cerritos not having any postings for a Lieutenant open.

Also weird is that Captains really can fire someone like Kirk threatened to do to Scotty that one time; its definitely a punishment since it ejects you from your current posting, but the guy Riker fired tried reapplying for a posting on Cerritos by asking Mariner and Boimler to write him letters of recommendation (perhaps a requirement for getting a new post under those circumstances). He got shot down, of course, but its another interesting distinction between how a military works and how Starfleet works. It kinda feels more like starships are run like franchised businesses, with a corporate structure that happens to use military ranks. The Captain is like the General Manager or local owner of the ship, except they have more to worry about than unhappy customers. Starfleet Command meanwhile is obviously Corporate HQ. This is at odds with how a military usually works, but then again it may make historic sense given the parallels between deep space missions and long voyages in the Age of Sail. The fact that no one is actually being paid also muddies comparison, as Mariner doesn't have to worry about being able to support her kids (if she had any) because she got bumped back to Ensign. Being an Ensign lacks prestige, but that's about the only downside. You can still have plenty of interesting duties, even be a major part of the command structure like Harry Kim or Tilly. You just can't boss people around as easily as a Lieutenant. So one has to ask, is it really all that bad to get demoted on a Federation Starship?

You actually get something wrong about Rank in Navy's. Sisco was a Commander "captaining" the Defiant because the Defiant was a smaller unit. Commander's routinely are the "Captain's" of ships with smaller crews. Modern Frigates and Nuclear Attack Subs normally have a Commander as their Captain. The rank reflects the size of the unit (ie Men) that you Command. Not your specific job or ship. Smaller Units such as famously PT Boats or similar Patrol Boats would be Captained by a Lieutenant. During WW2 the Lieutenant would typically have a squadron of 3 or 4 boats under his command. He would Captain one and the others would each have an Ensign. With they in turn joined up with 3 or 4 similar units under a Commander.

And if you actually look once Sisco made full Captain he very rarely Commanded the Defiant. It was mostly Dax or Worf, excepting certain special missions that Sisco needed to lead.

Oh and Kira was the XO of Deep Space 9. Not the Defiant. On the Defiant the XO was typically Dax or Worf.

People get confused with Captain because it has 2 effective meanings. One as a Rank and one as a job. And the two are somewhat disconnected from each other.

[CharlesPhipps]

Well the issue with Deep Space Nine was that it was supposed to be an absolute shit assignment that no one in the Federation was giving much importance to despite its crucialness to Bajor to joining the Federation. Which shows how much the Federation wanted Bajor.

In truth, no one really wanted the weird religious people in the ass end of nowhere to join (and they were ambivalent themselves) but it was thrown in with the Cardassian treaty because why not? To anyone BUT Gul Dukat and some butthurt fanatics in the Nazi..err Cardassian high command, Bajor was exhausted in resources and a boondoggle of guerilla resistance and petty sabotage.

So why not give it to the Federation as a face saving gesture in exchange for a couple of extra inhabitable planets along the border. Besides, on the Feddie's side, nice to have a military base there in case the Cardies act up again--which they will.

[This incredibly cynical view of the Federation is only canon for Deep Space Nine and some Star Trek movies]

So Sisko being a Commander was fine. However, it became less understandable once the wormhole appeared and it became one of the single most important strategic assets of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants both.

[Riedquat]

You actually get something wrong about Rank in Navy's. Sisco was a Commander "captaining" the Defiant because the Defiant was a smaller unit. Commander's routinely are the "Captain's" of ships with smaller crews. Modern Frigates and Nuclear Attack Subs normally have a Commander as their Captain. The rank reflects the size of the unit (ie Men) that you Command. Not your specific job or ship. Smaller Units such as famously PT Boats or similar Patrol Boats would be Captained by a Lieutenant. During WW2 the Lieutenant would typically have a squadron of 3 or 4 boats under his command. He would Captain one and the others would each have an Ensign. With they in turn joined up with 3 or 4 similar units under a Commander.

And if you actually look once Sisco made full Captain he very rarely Commanded the Defiant. It was mostly Dax or Worf, excepting certain special missions that Sisco needed to lead.

Oh and Kira was the XO of Deep Space 9. Not the Defiant. On the Defiant the XO was typically Dax or Worf.

People get confused with Captain because it has 2 effective meanings. One as a Rank and one as a job. And the two are somewhat disconnected from each other.

True but further back captains of ships were captains by rank; it wasn't considered a ship if it didn't have a captain in charge, and anything with a captain in charge was a ship (well anything bigger than a boat), no matter how small.

The reason for bringing it up is that things change over time, so there's no reason Trek should reflect any particular current day useage.

[CrypticMirror]

You actually get something wrong about Rank in Navy's. Sisco was a Commander "captaining" the Defiant because the Defiant was a smaller unit. Commander's routinely are the "Captain's" of ships with smaller crews. Modern Frigates and Nuclear Attack Subs normally have a Commander as their Captain. The rank reflects the size of the unit (ie Men) that you Command. Not your specific job or ship. Smaller Units such as famously PT Boats or similar Patrol Boats would be Captained by a Lieutenant. During WW2 the Lieutenant would typically have a squadron of 3 or 4 boats under his command. He would Captain one and the others would each have an Ensign. With they in turn joined up with 3 or 4 similar units under a Commander.

And if you actually look once Sisco made full Captain he very rarely Commanded the Defiant. It was mostly Dax or Worf, excepting certain special missions that Sisco needed to lead.

Oh and Kira was the XO of Deep Space 9. Not the Defiant. On the Defiant the XO was typically Dax or Worf.

People get confused with Captain because it has 2 effective meanings. One as a Rank and one as a job. And the two are somewhat disconnected from each other.

True but further back captains of ships were captains by rank; it wasn't considered a ship if it didn't have a captain in charge, and anything with a captain in charge was a ship (well anything bigger than a boat), no matter how small.

The reason for bringing it up is that things change over time, so there's no reason Trek should reflect any particular current day useage.

How far back are we going, because at least as far back as the formalising of the Royal Navy, captain (the position) and post-captain (the rank) were different things. With a very strict hierarchy about who could command what. Ships, even ships of the line, could be captained by commanders and even some lieutenants.

[Riedquat]

True but further back captains of ships were captains by rank; it wasn't considered a ship if it didn't have a captain in charge, and anything with a captain in charge was a ship (well anything bigger than a boat), no matter how small.

The reason for bringing it up is that things change over time, so there's no reason Trek should reflect any particular current day useage.

How far back are we going, because at least as far back as the formalising of the Royal Navy, captain (the position) and post-captain (the rank) were different things. With a very strict hierarchy about who could command what. Ships, even ships of the line, could be captained by commanders and even some lieutenants.

How far back doesn't matter, the point is merely that things change over time.

That said, out of curiosity what occasions were there of a ship of the line being commanded by a lieutenant, other than in an emergency situation where the captain is dead and there's not been a chance to get a replacement out, or has been put in command of a prize (which is only a temporary thing until it can be disposed of)?

[CharlesPhipps]

That said, out of curiosity what occasions were there of a ship of the line being commanded by a lieutenant, other than in an emergency situation where the captain is dead and there's not been a chance to get a replacement out, or has been put in command of a prize (which is only a temporary thing until it can be disposed of)?

I mean, the shuttles are warp drive capable vessels and are all the time being flown by people. However, we had Nog explain the "Sisko is called captain" to Jake thing and the Defiant is a tiny 12 man person "escort" ship versus the hundreds of people onboard the Enterprise. You're telling me whoever commands the gunship is going to be equal to the man who handles a carrier?

PT boats were captained by Petty officers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_Boat,_River

[Deledrius]

[This incredibly cynical view of the Federation is only canon for Deep Space Nine and some Star Trek movies]

So what you're saying is that Deep Space Nine is a direct sequel to Star Trek V... Makes sense to me!

[CharlesPhipps]

[This incredibly cynical view of the Federation is only canon for Deep Space Nine and some Star Trek movies]

So what you're saying is that Deep Space Nine is a direct sequel to Star Trek V... Makes sense to me!

I mean, if you're saying that V led to the best Star Trek series, it's a weird take but sure.

[Riedquat]

That said, out of curiosity what occasions were there of a ship of the line being commanded by a lieutenant, other than in an emergency situation where the captain is dead and there's not been a chance to get a replacement out, or has been put in command of a prize (which is only a temporary thing until it can be disposed of)?

I mean, the shuttles are warp drive capable vessels and are all the time being flown by people. However, we had Nog explain the "Sisko is called captain" to Jake thing and the Defiant is a tiny 12 man person "escort" ship versus the hundreds of people onboard the Enterprise. You're telling me whoever commands the gunship is going to be equal to the man who handles a carrier?

PT boats were captained by Petty officers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_Boat,_River

Huh? I seem to have lost track of just what point you're trying to make. Mine is nothing more than "just because Trek doesn't mirror current rank useage doesn't make it 'wrong'." That's all.