Lower deck episode 3?

[CharlesPhipps]

Huh? I seem to have lost track of just what point you're trying to make. Mine is nothing more than "just because Trek doesn't mirror current rank useage doesn't make it 'wrong'." That's all.

I was going with, "Defiant is a small ship so it being captained by a Commander makes sense."

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I thought it was O'Brien to Nog where the commanding protocol is discussed.

True but further back captains of ships were captains by rank; it wasn't considered a ship if it didn't have a captain in charge, and anything with a captain in charge was a ship (well anything bigger than a boat), no matter how small.

The reason for bringing it up is that things change over time, so there's no reason Trek should reflect any particular current day useage.

How far back are we going, because at least as far back as the formalising of the Royal Navy, captain (the position) and post-captain (the rank) were different things. With a very strict hierarchy about who could command what. Ships, even ships of the line, could be captained by commanders and even some lieutenants.

How far back doesn't matter, the point is merely that things change over time.

That said, out of curiosity what occasions were there of a ship of the line being commanded by a lieutenant, other than in an emergency situation where the captain is dead and there's not been a chance to get a replacement out, or has been put in command of a prize (which is only a temporary thing until it can be disposed of)?

I'm not sure what you mean by prize, but Data commanded the Sutherland against the Romulans. Granted he has the rank of command, but it was an official cross-ship designation with Picard acting as fleet commodore or whatever.

With matters pertaining to one ship, the federation isn't in charge of officer dynamics except for who they designate to be the rank of captain to formally command a ship. Obviously if you're out in space then anyone can command the ship regardless of command designation, though I doubt Starfleet would have allowed Troi to command the Sutherland at the time since she did not have her command pip until near the end of the series.

[Madner Kami]

[...] and the Defiant is a tiny 12 man person "escort" ship versus the hundreds of people onboard the Enterprise.

Sisko's Defiant has a crew complement of about 50. Kirk's Enterprise sports some 200-400 crew. Picard's Enterprise sports several thousands.

You're telling me whoever commands the gunship is going to be equal to the man who handles a carrier?

You aren't listening to what is being told. They aren't equal in rank. A captain (rank) will rarely if ever command a simple PT-boat, but the commanding officer will still be a captain (function), yet his rank will generally be that of a Lieutenant. Conversely even if the PT-boat captain would be a captain (rank), it's rather unlikely that he'll have superiority over a carrier-captain for the simple reason that generally the largest ship in a flotilla will be made the flag-ship as it almost always has the more senior officer in command and the command and control facilities to complement the task. Not to mention that a task force containing a carrier will be under the command of an admiral. Always.

[Deledrius]

I mean, if you're saying that V led to the best Star Trek series, it's a weird take but sure.

Tongue-in-cheek, mostly. I was drawing a line between what you said about the Federation's view of DS9 (pre-wormhole) and Nimbus III.

[Riedquat]

That said, out of curiosity what occasions were there of a ship of the line being commanded by a lieutenant, other than in an emergency situation where the captain is dead and there's not been a chance to get a replacement out, or has been put in command of a prize (which is only a temporary thing until it can be disposed of)?

I'm not sure what you mean by prize, but Data commanded the Sutherland against the Romulans. Granted he has the rank of command, but it was an official cross-ship designation with Picard acting as fleet commodore or whatever.

Prize as in captured enemy ship, whether it's an enemy warship or merchant ship. Not exactly practical with modern warfare but was once fairly common, and some captains (and admirals) did quite nicely out of it. Once captured it would need a crew put on board to sail it back to a suitable port, which would have to be commanded by one of the capturing ship's junior officers.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

That said, out of curiosity what occasions were there of a ship of the line being commanded by a lieutenant, other than in an emergency situation where the captain is dead and there's not been a chance to get a replacement out, or has been put in command of a prize (which is only a temporary thing until it can be disposed of)?

I'm not sure what you mean by prize, but Data commanded the Sutherland against the Romulans. Granted he has the rank of command, but it was an official cross-ship designation with Picard acting as fleet commodore or whatever.

Prize as in captured enemy ship, whether it's an enemy warship or merchant ship. Not exactly practical with modern warfare but was once fairly common, and some captains (and admirals) did quite nicely out of it. Once captured it would need a crew put on board to sail it back to a suitable port, which would have to be commanded by one of the capturing ship's junior officers.

So it's like in a first person shooter, when you shoot the "enemy," etc... and then "pick up" their "weapons" so that you can use the "ammo." I think I get it now.

[CharlesPhipps]

You aren't listening to what is being told. They aren't equal in rank. A captain (rank) will rarely if ever command a simple PT-boat, but the commanding officer will still be a captain (function), yet his rank will generally be that of a Lieutenant. Conversely even if the PT-boat captain would be a captain (rank), it's rather unlikely that he'll have superiority over a carrier-captain for the simple reason that generally the largest ship in a flotilla will be made the flag-ship as it almost always has the more senior officer in command and the command and control facilities to complement the task. Not to mention that a task force containing a carrier will be under the command of an admiral. Always.

*psst* I was arguing your point.

[McAvoy]

That said, out of curiosity what occasions were there of a ship of the line being commanded by a lieutenant, other than in an emergency situation where the captain is dead and there's not been a chance to get a replacement out, or has been put in command of a prize (which is only a temporary thing until it can be disposed of)?

I'm not sure what you mean by prize, but Data commanded the Sutherland against the Romulans. Granted he has the rank of command, but it was an official cross-ship designation with Picard acting as fleet commodore or whatever.

Prize as in captured enemy ship, whether it's an enemy warship or merchant ship. Not exactly practical with modern warfare but was once fairly common, and some captains (and admirals) did quite nicely out of it. Once captured it would need a crew put on board to sail it back to a suitable port, which would have to be commanded by one of the capturing ship's junior officers.

So it's like in a first person shooter, when you shoot the "enemy," etc... and then "pick up" their "weapons" so that you can use the "ammo." I think I get it now.

Very simplified. Prize is a captured enemy vessel where the winning ship and crew takes the captured enemy ship and get paid by their government for the ship. As in they won the battle and they take the prize.

Wooden vessels were hard to sink during the sailing days. Simple reason is that the weapons were not hitting below the waterline. Cannon balls would loose alot of their energy when they hit the water or they bounce off of it. So, at the end of the battle, there was always a ship there. Usually banged up and probably no masts for the sails.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Sooo it's more like the end of Search for Spock.

[McAvoy]

Sooo it's more like the end of Search for Spock.

Yep. Though I doubt Kirk and crew got anything for that ship. I doubt that was factored in them getting the Enterprise A.