The Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[TGLS]

Putin is bringing in his own volunteers to help Russian forces in Ukraine, sounds almost like a super villain. His regular mooks can't defeat the heroes so he is bringing in some outside help.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pu ... 022-03-11/

I'm thinking more Darth Vader hiring bounty hunters because the stormtroopers are incompetent.

More seriously, all the coverage of China is really giving a Germany just before WW1 vibe, in that they gave Russia/Austria-Hungary a blank check and are now surprised at how far Russia/Austria-Hungary took it.

[Frustration]

"Helping the people of Donbass"? From an article linked to by Wikipedia:

One strike leader said that Donbas people had voted for independence because they wanted "power to be given to the localities, enterprises, cities", not because they wanted heavily centralised power moved from "Moscow to Kyiv".

I can't imagine that anyone holding that opinion would want the region annexed by Russia.

[Madner Kami]

"Helping the people of Donbass"? From an article linked to by Wikipedia:

One strike leader said that Donbas people had voted for independence because they wanted "power to be given to the localities, enterprises, cities", not because they wanted heavily centralised power moved from "Moscow to Kyiv".

I can't imagine that anyone holding that opinion would want the region annexed by Russia.

It's just the usual wannabe local-dictators riding in on a wave of bad decissions by the Kyivan government (they had a number of anti-russian legislation incoming, which did infringe on the rights of the russian minority*), being monetarily and militarily backed by Moscow, bullshitting their way through history and the public.

*Note that most of those laws would have been incompatible with EU legislation (and were subsequentally shut down anyways) and those laws were a reaction to Moscow and the russian minorities backing the violent backlash against the Euromaidan-protests in the first place, which famously lead to Ukraine ousting their russian puppet government.

[As usual, Russia causes the problems it decries in the first place. They've got a puppet installed in Ukraine, backed by the local russian minorities, which cancels the attempts of Ukraine to join the EU, which lead to the Euromaidan-protests during which the russian-backed government escalates and shoots at the protesters. The protests continue and end up ousting the puppet, installing an anti-russian, pro-ukrainian, pro-western government, which tries to strengthen the ukrainian nationality and scale back the russian influence onto the nation, which leads to a pro-russian uprising supported by Moscow in the Donbas and so on.
But try to tell that to any Putinista or pro-russian and they start to tell you a fable of how the US and NATO is responsible for it all, despite playing literally no role in it, other than supporting the Euromaidan protests with words.]

[hammerofglass]

The discussion is kind of limited by progressives not having had any actual power in the US or UK since the Carter administration.

Unless you count gay/bi folks getting marriages and discrimination protections.

The Democrats on a national level were claiming to not support that right up until the wire, and frankly it's giving them the benefit of the doubt to accept they were lying. The Republicans, of course, did and still do openly oppose it.

So no, I don't see any particular reason to count it.

[Riedquat]

[As usual, Russia causes the problems it decries in the first place. They've got a puppet installed in Ukraine, backed by the local russian minorities, which cancels the attempts of Ukraine to join the EU, which lead to the Euromaidan-protests during which the russian-backed government escalates and shoots at the protesters. The protests continue and end up ousting the puppet, installing an anti-russian, pro-ukrainian, pro-western government, which tries to strengthen the ukrainian nationality and scale back the russian influence onto the nation, which leads to a pro-russian uprising supported by Moscow in the Donbas and so on.
But try to tell that to any Putinista or pro-russian and they start to tell you a fable of how the US and NATO is responsible for it all, despite playing literally no role in it, other than supporting the Euromaidan protests with words.]

Russia, well, Putin's idea of who is responsible is a bit like "give me your money or you'll get hurt" and then saying it's the mugging victim's fault for getting hurt because he didn't listen to the mugger's concerns. To be honest it's more pathetic than that; at least the mugger is after something real, whilst Russia's concerns are borne of Putin's paranoia about NATO and his egocentric narcissism.

[CmdrKing]

Putin is bringing in his own volunteers to help Russian forces in Ukraine, sounds almost like a super villain. His regular mooks can't defeat the heroes so he is bringing in some outside help.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pu ... 022-03-11/

Considering the fact that russias troops are a mix of conscripts who don’t want to be there and career soldiers who’re so damn corrupt they’re at the root of the logistical shitshow we’ve seen so far, it’s not surprising Putin is aching for battle-tested professionals.

Of course, special forces and veterans from across NATO seem to be getting a lot of “leave granted *wink*” permissions lately so I have my doubts they’ll prove to be a difference maker.

[phantom000]

Putin is bringing in his own volunteers to help Russian forces in Ukraine, sounds almost like a super villain. His regular mooks can't defeat the heroes so he is bringing in some outside help.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pu ... 022-03-11/

Considering the fact that russias troops are a mix of conscripts who don’t want to be there and career soldiers who’re so damn corrupt they’re at the root of the logistical shitshow we’ve seen so far, it’s not surprising Putin is aching for battle-tested professionals.

Of course, special forces and veterans from across NATO seem to be getting a lot of “leave granted *wink*” permissions lately so I have my doubts they’ll prove to be a difference maker.

To me it seems like Putin is getting desperate, or maybe he is in a Vietnam situation where he knows his original goal is unobtainable at this point but is afraid how he and Russia will be perceived if he just gives up so quickly.

[Frustration]

To me it seems like Putin is getting desperate, or maybe he is in a Vietnam situation where he knows his original goal is unobtainable at this point but is afraid how he and Russia will be perceived if he just gives up so quickly.

"What was it all for, I wonder? What was any of it for?"

[phantom000]

To me it seems like Putin is getting desperate, or maybe he is in a Vietnam situation where he knows his original goal is unobtainable at this point but is afraid how he and Russia will be perceived if he just gives up so quickly.

"What was it all for, I wonder? What was any of it for?"

I guess that is the big question; what was he trying to do?

But in the later part of the Vietnam War, when the US realized that they couldn't defeat or even contain the North Vietnamese the focus became 'peace with honor' as Nixon put it. Basically, trying to end the fighting while not loosing face in the international community.

Putin could be in a similar state where he knows he can never achieve his goal but he is trying not to look weak or stupid in front of the world.

[CharlesPhipps]

I guess that is the big question; what was he trying to do?

But in the later part of the Vietnam War, when the US realized that they couldn't defeat or even contain the North Vietnamese the focus became 'peace with honor' as Nixon put it. Basically, trying to end the fighting while not loosing face in the international community.

Putin could be in a similar state where he knows he can never achieve his goal but he is trying not to look weak or stupid in front of the world.

Some interesting elements from this were:

1. Nixon sabotaged the peace talks that could have ended the war earlier on better terms.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... on-215461/

2. The Tet Offensive actually annihilated the Viet Cong as a military force. The US only saw that it had a willingness to fight further when it was actually designed to eradicate the Viet Cong as an embarrassment to the North Vietnamese army.