Hope and Fear

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

What I really find interesting about Arturis is that most characters wronged by the Borg fix their revenge on the Borg themselves, whereas he has a more, well, nuanced and reasonable vendetta, if that's not a contradiction. It's refreshing to see somebody who was devestated by the Borg but is still rational enough to realize that the Borg drones have no free will or agency.

[bronnt]

The fact that this episode explored the fallout from another significant event that Voyager stumbled into is great. I'm not exactly on the side of Arturis since, as many have said, at the time this episode was written, Species 8472 hadn't been neutered yet. The reason they ultimately were is that they were expensive to even show, while the Borg, in latex costumes, were a bit easier. The cool thing about the Borg is that they're threatening just by showing the massive Borg Cube, where it takes a lot of CGI effects to actually show the danger of 8472. So when I see facts retroactively altered for obviously out-of-universe reasons, I tend to give the characters more credit for their actions prior to the retroactive changes: essentially, I won't find them morally guilty for Ex Post Facto violations.

"Night" would have been a beautiful follow-up if this episode had demonstrated her shaken by the events, and had that fall into a sort of "paralysis by analysis" mentality in Season 5. She might get to the point of apathy, refusing to take any action, out of fear that she can never recognize the full consequences any more. Unfortunately, "Night" turned out to have too much idiotic writing for me to like it: Janeway was ultimately depressed for completely DIFFERENT reasons that don't make sense given the timeframe. They came out of nowhere since they were completely unrelated to the events of the prior season and were in contrast to previous charcterization. There was also a ton of just nonsense that was utterly cartoony-the whole ship lost power, which caused the LIGHTS to go off in the holodeck while keeping the holographic projections active, so Tom Paris whips out a holographic FLASHLIGHT so he can see because the lights aren't working even thought the freaking light sources had to be holographic in the first place...even though it somehow maintained the effect that was keeping Tom and Seven in monochrome...!!!! GAH it's still too stupid for me to deal with.

[Jokie155]

In response to the post above, I feel like that's the result of Trek writers as a whole not actually nailing down how the holodeck works. I know in Voyager they went more for 'hard light' explanation, but Night seemed to push the 'replicated matter' explanation that was seen more in TNG. So yeah, while inconsistent with the rest of the show, there is at least some explanation for why everything didn't just dematerialise, sudden power cut stops the holodeck from performing that function. I don't know about the rest, that's just my bit on it.

And I mean, come on, Seven's 'solution' to dealing with Satan's Robot was hilariously appropriate.

[Morgaine]

Replicated matter explains things like holodeck food and maybe some objects.
But entire setpieces? You mean they have to ration replicator use for food to the point that the crew has to live off barely edible poison prepared by the resident bar rodent, but the holodeck can replicate entire environments for Commander Macho's latest adventure?

Yeah that seems unlikely even for this show.

[Madner Kami]

Replicated matter explains things like holodeck food and maybe some objects.
But entire setpieces? You mean they have to ration replicator use for food to the point that the crew has to live off barely edible poison prepared by the resident bar rodent, but the holodeck can replicate entire environments for Commander Macho's latest adventure?

Yeah that seems unlikely even for this show.

Remember, the Voyager's holodeck works on an entirely different energy-grid than the rest of the ship and both systems are neither connected nor interchangable. The replicators run on warp-core generated energy, the holodeck runs off self-reloading batteries made of liquid Bullshitium, that draw their energy directly from the stupidity of the plot.

[Morgaine]

Replicated matter explains things like holodeck food and maybe some objects.
But entire setpieces? You mean they have to ration replicator use for food to the point that the crew has to live off barely edible poison prepared by the resident bar rodent, but the holodeck can replicate entire environments for Commander Macho's latest adventure?

Yeah that seems unlikely even for this show.

Remember, the Voyager's holodeck works on an entirely different energy-grid than the rest of the ship and both systems are neither connected nor interchangable. The replicators run on warp-core generated energy, the holodeck runs off self-reloading batteries made of liquid Bullshitium, that draw their energy directly from the stupidity of the plot.

Oh right I forgot about that little gem.
I know they wanted to justify them having holodecks while stranded in deep space, but I would've gone with "we need to try and keep one holodeck active for morale" over that. But I guess that would've made Janeway's holonovel adventures look stupid. Well. More stupid.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Scorpion is maybe the best two hours of the show, but Janeway breaks enough rules to be considered a war criminal, so I'd tend to side with any Delta Squadron inhabitant who's out for revenge.

The rational/skeptic captain with a scientific background is teaming up with the Borg on the basis of a vision. Like Chuck indicated, not having enough information isn't exactly license to just do whatever you want. For a good captain, it should be a call to gather more info.
Her motivations are also typically selfish. I could maybe buy that passage through Borg space was a nice bonus if this didn't fit into a well-established pattern. No one other than the heroes would get away with making a deal like that for their own convenience- The Equinox crew didn't.

The entire plan is to use biological weapons and help the most powerful enemy you encountered. That is just... not a good idea imo.

Even if you accept the idea that it's a good plan at first, the situation changed once they developed the nanoprobe, and especially when they discovered that the Borg started the war to begin with. By that point you have a powerful weapon against one "maybe" enemy and no defense against one definite enemy that will get back to assimilating people before long if they aren't stopped. Keeping the deal was just a terrible idea. Give the nanoprobes to other species if you have to

[Durandal_1707]

^ Yes, yes, and yes. +1000 to everything you said there.

This is an important point that I should have brought up regarding whether 8472 were "neutered" later; no, they weren't. The fact that the Borg were the aggressors in the conflict and 8472 were just defending themselves was established in the original two-parter.

And yes, not having enough information does not give you the right to act without having any clue. If you bumble into World War II and decide to help Hitler because Stalin's a douche, you're the villain. No two ways about it.

[Morgaine]

It honestly makes me wonder if Kes' vision was basically tapping into a random 8472 crewmember who was just thinking their equivalent of "screw these people!", much like any random human might have a random thought of nuking a country that had just attacked theirs. Hence "your galaxy will be purged".

I think people say "neutered" to mean it was confirmed that they were in fact defending themselves, and/or people just wanted them to be more menacing.
To me that's largely incidental to the fact that Janeway could have handled it better and given that she didn't she should feel something more than to just brush Arturis off.

[Durandal_1707]

It honestly makes me wonder if Kes' vision was basically tapping into a random 8472 crewmember who was just thinking their equivalent of "screw these people!", much like any random human might have a random thought of nuking a country that had just attacked theirs. Hence "your galaxy will be purged".

Or, in the case of the USA, you can find talk like that coming from the goddamn president. "We will have no choice but to totally destroy North Korea!"