Star Wars Needs to Let the Dark Side Be More Interesting | Glass of Water - [Lily Orchard]

[Winter]

Uh no. He asks "You or someone else."
Anakin: "Someone."
Yoda: "Someone close?"
Anakin: "Yes"
Yoda: "Fear of loss is a path to the darkside."
Anakin: "I won't let these visions come true."
Yoda: "Death is natural. Rejoice in one becoming one with the force."

That is not help people. That is let everyone die for they go to a better place. Anakin even mentioned the person was in pain and suffering. That does not come off as don't let it control your better judgment. It comes off as there is a greater plan and who are we to intervene. Which is a contradiction to the jedi are peace keepers and healers.
Oh and this is yet another of Anakin was setup. Yes he lost control in the Tusken Raider camp. And he broke down in tears to Padme because of his guilt. If he had minded his previous visions. Done something. Then neither his mother nor the Tusken would have died. Now he has another batch of visions and the jedi brush them off with a 'let them die' philosophy.

I get it the path to hell is paved in good intentions. But the jedi were giving directions down the path here.

I can't agree that this is Yoda saying, "Let them die" because Yoda spends most of the film helping anyone he can, Including Padme. Again, he's sad when she dies and he and Obi-Wan did everything they could to save her. Had Anakin said Something to indicate who was in danger then it's possible the Jedi would have helped but Anakin didn't give any details beyond "Someone is going to die."

The actions of Yoda show that he would help and should someone go against his wishes he may not always support them but he will not condemn them either.

[Nealithi]

Winter. I pulled up a clip on YouTube. That is what was said.
It was not "We will do what we can. But people still die. You have to learn to accept that."
He skipped the we will try everyone wants to insert so the jedi don't sound uncaring.

[CharlesPhipps]

Anakin: I've seen a vision in the Force. Someone I care about dies.

Kirk: LET THEM DIE.

[Winter]

@Nealithi

You Quote.

Uh no. He asks "You or someone else."
Anakin: "Someone."
Yoda: "Someone close?"
Anakin: "Yes"
Yoda: "Fear of loss is a path to the darkside."
Anakin: "I won't let these visions come true."
Yoda: "Death is natural. Rejoice in one becoming one with the force.

The Actual Quote

Yoda: Premonitions . . . premonitions . . . Hmmmm . . . these visions you have . . .

Anakin: They are of pain, suffering, death. . .

Yoda: Yourself you speak of, or someone you know?

Anakin: Someone . . .

Yoda: . . . close to you?

Anakin: Yes.

Yoda: Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

Anakin: I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

Yoda: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

Anakin: What must I do, Master Yoda?

Yoda: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

Let's focus on the words used from both characters.

Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

Yoda here can see that Anakin is already on a dark path and is telling him to be careful when sensing the Future and using what he said in Empire, Always in motion is the Future. Also, note the points Anakin focuses on when he talks about these visions.

They are of pain, suffering, death

Anakin is already letting his fear of losing Padme drive his judgement and I can relate to him here. I've lost people I love and the fear of losing them took me to some dark places that I would rather not get into here for obvious reasons and the thought that I could do something wasn't healthy. But let's get back to the little green man and what he says.

He makes a point the fear of lose is a path what is driving Anakin here. Again I get what he's going through but Anakin just goes straight to saying.

I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

We see here that Anakin has already made up his mind and is stating that he will make things go the way he feels they should be. It's clear that Anakin's emotions are what's driving him here and that he wants matters more then anything else. Thus we come to Yoda's response.

Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

Yoda doesn't have any answers for Anakin's vision because (and I'll admit this is me just speculating here) Yoda may have sensed that the person Anakin fear losing would not survive. Let's go to the vision for a moment. Anakin sees Padme die in childbirth and based on what he sees it seems this death is certain, he has no power to keep her alive and there is no power the Jedi know of that can either heal the those from death.

What Anakin is asking for, is not something within the Jedi's power to grant and I think Yoda can sense that this is the case. I mean, if Anakin saw Padme dying in a cave while giving birth and she died because she wasn't in a hospital where she would have help then yeah, the Jedi would be jerks who just let people die. But one thing I like about Lucas' take on the Force and those who wield it, the Force gives Jedi and Sith powers that allow them to do amazing things that are otherwise impossible for regular people, but their not GODS. They make mistakes, they can be killed and they can't save everyone.

Let's imagine for a moment that Anakin told Yoda that it was Padme that was going to die in childbirth, what can he do? Palpatine offers false hope by implying that if he and Anakin work together they can find a way to save Padme from dying in childbirth but all he has to go on is an old story that may not even be true.

All Yoda can do is to warn Anakin to not let grief consume him, because as far as anyone knows, this is not something the Force can fix. Thus the final part of the conversation.

Anakin: What must I do, Master Yoda?

Yoda: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

What Anakin wants is a miracle and that's beyond Yoda and the Jedi's powers. Again, they're not Gods, they can't just have Anakin bring in Padme and prevent her from dying. Palpatine offers a story about a Sith that could do this but that's all it is, a story. A magical tale that gives Anakin the idea that he could save his wife if he goes to the Sith but Palpatine has no answer and by following down this path, be refusing to let go of all he fears to lose, he insures that his wife will die... Because she just loses the will to live, okay that part is really silly.

So, to reiterate my point, Yoda is not saying "Let the person you love die" he is saying "Don't let your fear of losing the one you love consume you."

And again, that's all he can do. He can't stop people from dying, he can't give Anakin what he wants because (at this point in the series FU Rise of Skywalker) that's something that can be done. The Force is powerful, but it's not an all fix.

Part of Anakin's arc (and why I feel The Phantom Menace ISN'T worthless to the series) is Anakin seeing the Jedi as these great heroes but when he sees them as the flawed mortals they are he chooses to damn them and focus on only what matters to him.

[McAvoy]

I am just thinking about what a Gray Jedi would look like in Disney. Han Solo with a lightsaber?

[Winter]

I am just thinking about what a Gray Jedi would look like in Disney. Han Solo with a lightsaber?

It depends on who's writing them. If KOTOR Remake is faithful to the original then that gives us two Grey Jedi but others might turn them into Sith in everything but name which happened quite often during the Lucas Era.

[McAvoy]

I am just thinking about what a Gray Jedi would look like in Disney. Han Solo with a lightsaber?

It depends on who's writing them. If KOTOR Remake is faithful to the original then that gives us two Grey Jedi but others might turn them into Sith in everything but name which happened quite often during the Lucas Era.

It's was more of a joke. That Sith are evil and Jedi are good. And Solo was kinda in between but heavily leans on the good. Unlawful Good I guess.

As in Gray Jedi are Unlawful Good but what would be Gray Sith? Lawful Evil?

What exactly makes Sith inheritely evil? Their actions? To be sure. Their connection to the Dark Side? Movies make it out that going Dark Side is automatically evil.

What exactly would make it evil in first place?

Me personally, it would be interesting to see someone who is using Dark Side of the Force to actually using it for good. An anti Hero.

[McAvoy]

I had this idea that what if it was Yoda that caused the downfall of the Jedi Order.

He died a nice even 900 years old. But that is more than enough time for him to not only establish himself as a Supreme Jedi Grandmaster but enough time to dictate how the Jedi should be run. What if Yoda changed Jedi policy due to his long life over the centuries.

[Winter]

The Dark Side is corruption the Light Side is compassion. Dark is not evil and light is not good but those who seek to benefit only themselves damn the fall out to those around them and those who use their power in defense of others even if the world damns them for being "unrealistic" or "stupid".

The problem I have with "Let the past die" concept (which is something Rian Johnson himself has made a big deal out of) is that it ignores one of the most important lessons of all time "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

I think this misses what’s actually being said in TLJ, and why it says it. The best point of comparison is actually KotOR2, and both are picking up on a similar interpretation of the prequels: the Jedi, with their dogmatic, aloof interpretation of the Force, were perpetuating the light/dark conflict themselves. The Sith did all their own dirty work, but did so by taking advantage of the Jedi, not purely through their own power.

They reach very different conclusions though. Avellone goes meta, and concludes that the Force itself (as proxy for Star Wars and it’s storytelling as a whole) is wicked, two halves of a whole forcing the same battles to take place over and over again throughout history. You can argue that Kreia’s defeat suggest this is also wrong, but it’s presented as an uncomfortable truth that the player may accept or reject as they will and Kreia’s defeat has too many possible motivations to totally discount her.

Johnson concludes that the Jedi (and by extension the Sith) have wildly misinterpreted the nature of the Force over the millennia. The solution is to take the original teachings and learn directly from them, and letting new orders, new ideas arise from understanding those originals. That the problem had nothing to do with the Force itself (and indeed that the Dark Side was just an empty manifestation of the wielder’s ego) and everything to do with the accumulated dogma, the rigid adherence to authority and tradition. What perpetuated the same conflict over and over was that both sides kept doing the exact same things, out of rigid belief they were the only way to do things.

Here's the problem I have with this, Johnson doesn't give an answer as to what the solution should be. TLJ has been accused of having an almost Saturday Morning Cartoon Mentality in how it handles it's messages. War is bad, War Profiteering is bad, the way of the Jedi is wrong and the Force is for everyone.

It makes a big deal about these points and yet, doesn't actually discuss how these issues should be addressed which wouldn't be bad except the film KEEPS acting like it has the answer but doesn't want to share them.

TLJ: The Old Way of the Jedi Doesn't Work! It Should be Fixed!

Me: How?

TLJ: I don't know. The Old Way Doesn't Work.

It's like when a show makes a big deal about the Environment is Being Hurt by the Oil Companies and that it should be fixed, but instead of discussing how things could be changed it just rants about the Oil Companies suck and doesn't offer up any advice on how things can be changed.

But let's put that on the back burner for now and look instead at the the central premise of the film. That it's about learning from the past and learning from it to move forward which is said straight to the viewer by Yoda to get the point across.

This is hampered for a number of reasons not the least of which being TLJ, like The Force Awakens before it, is just copying the notes of TOT and altering just a few lines to make it sound different. Luke's arc in TLJ is him coming to terms with the flaws of the Jedi Order and choosing to embody the turn nature of the Jedi by rejecting a lightsaber duel was done in Return of the Jedi. It's the same song and dance with only a few difference (Luke being a cranky old man who blames the way of the Jedi Order for his own failings) so it's not learning from the past, it's just copying it.

Same thing with Kylo Ren and his final confrontation with Rey in the film. Kylo revealing a secret to Rey that is, supposedly, a big twist and offering her to join him and rule the galaxy was done in The Empire Strikes Back only swap out "Your Parents were nobody" with "I am your Father" and you pretty much have the same scene with slight alterations (why did Rey want to redeem Kylo again?).

The whole film is like that, it makes a big deal about not being like what came before except... it IS what came before just altered enough so it's not obvious on first viewing, at least for me it is.

As always I mean no disrespect I'm just saying what I think.

[Nealithi]

@Nealithi

You Quote.

Uh no. He asks "You or someone else."
Anakin: "Someone."
Yoda: "Someone close?"
Anakin: "Yes"
Yoda: "Fear of loss is a path to the darkside."
Anakin: "I won't let these visions come true."
Yoda: "Death is natural. Rejoice in one becoming one with the force.

The Actual Quote

Yoda: Premonitions . . . premonitions . . . Hmmmm . . . these visions you have . . .

Anakin: They are of pain, suffering, death. . .

Yoda: Yourself you speak of, or someone you know?

Anakin: Someone . . .

Yoda: . . . close to you?

Anakin: Yes.

Yoda: Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

Anakin: I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

Yoda: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

Anakin: What must I do, Master Yoda?

Yoda: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

Let's focus on the words used from both characters.

Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

Yoda here can see that Anakin is already on a dark path and is telling him to be careful when sensing the Future and using what he said in Empire, Always in motion is the Future. Also, note the points Anakin focuses on when he talks about these visions.

They are of pain, suffering, death

Anakin is already letting his fear of losing Padme drive his judgement and I can relate to him here. I've lost people I love and the fear of losing them took me to some dark places that I would rather not get into here for obvious reasons and the thought that I could do something wasn't healthy. But let's get back to the little green man and what he says.

He makes a point the fear of lose is a path what is driving Anakin here. Again I get what he's going through but Anakin just goes straight to saying.

I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

We see here that Anakin has already made up his mind and is stating that he will make things go the way he feels they should be. It's clear that Anakin's emotions are what's driving him here and that he wants matters more then anything else. Thus we come to Yoda's response.

Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

Yoda doesn't have any answers for Anakin's vision because (and I'll admit this is me just speculating here) Yoda may have sensed that the person Anakin fear losing would not survive. Let's go to the vision for a moment. Anakin sees Padme die in childbirth and based on what he sees it seems this death is certain, he has no power to keep her alive and there is no power the Jedi know of that can either heal the those from death.

What Anakin is asking for, is not something within the Jedi's power to grant and I think Yoda can sense that this is the case. I mean, if Anakin saw Padme dying in a cave while giving birth and she died because she wasn't in a hospital where she would have help then yeah, the Jedi would be jerks who just let people die. But one thing I like about Lucas' take on the Force and those who wield it, the Force gives Jedi and Sith powers that allow them to do amazing things that are otherwise impossible for regular people, but their not GODS. They make mistakes, they can be killed and they can't save everyone.

Let's imagine for a moment that Anakin told Yoda that it was Padme that was going to die in childbirth, what can he do? Palpatine offers false hope by implying that if he and Anakin work together they can find a way to save Padme from dying in childbirth but all he has to go on is an old story that may not even be true.

All Yoda can do is to warn Anakin to not let grief consume him, because as far as anyone knows, this is not something the Force can fix. Thus the final part of the conversation.

Anakin: What must I do, Master Yoda?

Yoda: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

What Anakin wants is a miracle and that's beyond Yoda and the Jedi's powers. Again, they're not Gods, they can't just have Anakin bring in Padme and prevent her from dying. Palpatine offers a story about a Sith that could do this but that's all it is, a story. A magical tale that gives Anakin the idea that he could save his wife if he goes to the Sith but Palpatine has no answer and by following down this path, be refusing to let go of all he fears to lose, he insures that his wife will die... Because she just loses the will to live, okay that part is really silly.

So, to reiterate my point, Yoda is not saying "Let the person you love die" he is saying "Don't let your fear of losing the one you love consume you."

And again, that's all he can do. He can't stop people from dying, he can't give Anakin what he wants because (at this point in the series FU Rise of Skywalker) that's something that can be done. The Force is powerful, but it's not an all fix.

Part of Anakin's arc (and why I feel The Phantom Menace ISN'T worthless to the series) is Anakin seeing the Jedi as these great heroes but when he sees them as the flawed mortals they are he chooses to damn them and focus on only what matters to him.

I think you made a few minor mistakes in the argument. First about decisions. Is what did you know and when did you know it? Looking at history from well after events it is easy to see a what should have been done. I mostly get into this because of WW2 and my father is an amateur historian for it.
The reason I say this is the part where you claim Anakin asked for something no jedi's power can grant. Yoda never asks who or how. His only concern is poking Anakin about caring at all. Yoda does not know they cannot help. And the 'No Jedi' bit comes from Palpatine later. I have said quite often here. Oh yes did Palpatine manipulate Anakin. I do not even exonerate Anakin. Slaughtering a room full of children is very over the top on villainy. But I do hold Yoda and through him the Jedi accountable for claiming to be this bastion of good that dismisses pain, suffering, and death. For the lesson of learn to let go. It is natural and they will go to a better place. Because if dying sends you to the force and that is the glory you preach. Then the Jedi should think killing is the answer to everything. They have their own slippery slope to the darkside.

Oh and as pointed out by CharlesPhipps, this may have been a self fulfilling prophecy. But it was sure guided along by Yoda dismissing the problem. So here is my looking back observation. If Yoda pressed not on Anakin's feelings or even not just his feelings and got the vision from Anakin. Then he could very easily gone. "Put her in a hospital now we will. She will get the best care that can be given. But you must learn control of your emotions so they do not consume you." Then the prophecy chain would have been broken. Because the jedi would have been helping.
Because please check me on this. But hasn't Yoda been flippant about everyone's problems for two of the three prequel movies? No concern about visions of Anakin's mother dying. Obi Wan expresses some concern about what he is seeing. So Yoda brushes it off as all padawan's are like that. Just the previous movie you didn't like the idea of Obi Wan being the teacher. This is his first student right out of being a student himself! And when he asks for advice you think it is cute?
Sorry but as the most seen and heard of the jedi council Yoda ends up representing the jedi as a whole. And he is not coming off very well.