Hope and Fear

[bronnt]

^ Yes, yes, and yes. +1000 to everything you said there.

This is an important point that I should have brought up regarding whether 8472 were "neutered" later; no, they weren't. The fact that the Borg were the aggressors in the conflict and 8472 were just defending themselves was established in the original two-parter.

That's a revelation that does absolutely nothing for me. I had always assumed that the Borg were the aggressors, since that's the only way the Borg operate: They find a species and attempt to assimilate it. I don't think anyone ever decided that helping the Borg was the right call because they "victims" of a nasty aggressive species. It always came down to deciding which of the two was the greater threat.

You should also remember that their FIRST instinct was to make an alliance with 8472 (when all they knew was that they were killing Borg cubes). They hailed an 8472 vessel and got no response. They couldn't scan it so they didn't even know it was a vessel-they wanted try to transport it somewhere so they could analyze it, but transporters did nothing. In order to try to learn about WHAT was killing the Borg, they beamed onto a deactivated Borg Cube, where one of them immediately attacked Harry Kim. After that, Voyager tried to run and their vessel immediately opened fire on them. Sometime in this, they get their only communication: "The weak shall perish." Later they encounter more ships, and once again, no attempt to communicate, only Kes getting a sense that they're planning to kill everything.

You say that they "kept" the alliance after learning that 8472 was the aggressors, but all Voyager did after that point was defend themselves. They were in fluidic space and trapped there. In fact, they tried to use Kes to communicate that they didn't want to fight, that they were only acting to defending themselves. They then had Kes WARN them about the nanoprobe weapons and that they would be used if 8472 didn't stop attacking. "Your galaxy will be purged," they replied. And then they shot FIRST. So Voyager returned fire, which led to the fight where they ultimately drove them back into their own space.

So, based on what we know-that there's only one weapon which can be used against them, they refuse any diplomatic overtures, and they curb-stomped one of the most powerful species in the galaxy, I can't really say that Janeway is wrong for considering them the bigger threat through all this. She IS wrong in that her decision was entirely self-serving and in that she wasn't under pressure to act at the start. But it's not as if she actively sought out ways to kill a species that was leaving them alone, they had been attacked multiple times before they ever fired on the 8472.

In summary, a lot of retroactive changes neutered them from the "Destroy all humanoids" into "hey, we were just defending ourselves."

[Morgaine]

It's not that simple, I think. 8472 could've just been collectively extremely angry.

Here the are just minding their own business when suddenly the Borg barge in, contaminate their space and try to assimilate them.
Even if they're completely ineffective, it was likely regarded as a grievous insult at best, and they very likely regarded anybody else in that area as little different to the Borg, especially when the Voyager then goes on to go into their space just like the Borg.

It's a fallacy to assume that you have the right to communicate with everyone and get involved in their business, the prudent course of action would've been to leave Borg space and not get involved. If that was inconvenient then tough, it's better than getting squashed between a superpower and an ultrapower.

[Durandal_1707]

^ Inconvenience is also better than contributing to multiple genocides (Ray Wise's people only being the ones we know about).

[Beastro]

She made some bad decisions and Arturis did have a right to be mad at her. No one's saying she should've prostrated herself before him and sacrificed her crew but *some* genuine regret and nuance would've been nice.

It would have gone a long way for her to drop all pretense, hang her shoulders and honestly saying "I'm sorry, and I'm sorry me saying these words is all I can give you" without the corollaries that always seem to follow any Janeway apology that reminds me of when people do something and then say the non-apology "I'm sorry you feel upset".

In Arturis case, I think it would have been good if they'd pushed back explaining what they knew/thought of Species 8472 and provided a dark contrast to his outrage - that his race was effectively screwed no matter what Voyager or anyone else could have done all that would have changed would be if the Borg or 8472 would have finished them off, but doing so while acknowledging the grief someone in his case would feel being the last survivor of his race.

Even if you accept the idea that it's a good plan at first, the situation changed once they developed the nanoprobe, and especially when they discovered that the Borg started the war to begin with. By that point you have a powerful weapon against one "maybe" enemy and no defense against one definite enemy that will get back to assimilating people before long if they aren't stopped. Keeping the deal was just a terrible idea. Give the nanoprobes to other species if you have to

The Realpolitik lover in me loves that, using the Borg to develop such a weapon, then leaving them out to dry.

Put's a larger spin on the "Making a deal with the Devil" in that they do so trying to trick him.

As 8472 and them posing a threat or not posing one, I find it more effective to have Voyager and the drama revolve around them being another Borg-level threat and having to walk a fine line between them while keeping in mind their own interests and those of the rest of the Milky Way that needs to be rid of both of them.

If you bumble into World War II and decide to help Hitler because Stalin's a douche, you're the villain.

That example is more muddled and something I wish had been presented with the Borg and 8472. Essentially, Germany provided more reason for everyone to find it in their interest to focus on them, especially thanks to how evens chained together, while tolerating the Soviet Union. Soviet actions in Eastern Europe after Germany invaded Poland are the best example of that, since the Allies wouldn't have been idiots to declare war on them as well for doing the same thing the Germans had done.

They tried to show that in the relationship Voyager and the Borg have in Scorpion, but it didn't as mesh well, and as much as they try to paint 8472 as a threat, we all know the Borg and the whole appeal of the episode is their large scale return to Trek, so they HAVE to be the big enemy and that fact never leaves the audiences mind.

and they very likely regarded anybody else in that area as little different to the Borg, especially when the Voyager then goes on to go into their space just like the Borg.

That does not excuse their line of reasoning that they should attack everyone in the this newly found space a threat has come from. It at best presents them as something akin to a wild animal attacking everyone as a threat. Simply because it doesn't know any better doesn't mean you don't defend yourself against it.

It's a fallacy to assume that you have the right to communicate with everyone and get involved in their business, the prudent course of action would've been to leave Borg space and not get involved. If that was inconvenient then tough, it's better than getting squashed between a superpower and an ultrapower.

It is when it's in your interests to find out what kind of threat they are to you and your people, then find confirmation that they are.

Another good scenario would be if the Borg ran into the Dominion and began overrunning it. The Founders come asking for help from the Alpha Quadrant powers, what do they do? Turn a blind eye and the Dominion most likely gets assimilated making the Borg all the more powerful while now dominating two quadrants of the galaxy while aiding the Dominion and checking the Borg does aid the Dominion, a power still able to overrun the AQ unchecked if they ever found a way to reach it a no longer had to rely on a single chokepoint that is the Bajorian Wormhole, but it's better than strengthening the Borg.

It reminds me of an old saying of someone I know "You cut off the head of the snake closest to you" - 8472 was that snake in that everything they let on gace the impression they'd continue wiping out life once the Borg were dealt with while the Borg would return to being the long term, chronic problem at the edge of thr known space they'd been since early TNG.

^ Inconvenience is also better than contributing to multiple genocides (Ray Wise's people only being the ones we know about).

To echo what I said about Arturis' race, chances are given what was known of 8472 they were screwed either way, assimilated by the Borg once 8472 was out of the way or wiped out by 8472 as they began to spread their conflict beyond their entry point into our galaxy.

To use good old WWII example, they go Polanded where if Germany hadn't of been the first to invade them, the Soviet Union would have, and despite the outcome of the war, Poland and the rest of East Europe remained under Soviet Dominion for 45 years as a result of the compromises and vagarities of the war.

There was no probably outcome that would have resulted in things being better for Poland that wouldn't result in things being far worse for the Western Allies in that it would turn WWII into a long fight against Germany followed by one against the Soviet Union or both allied against the Western powers until they could be out of the way.

Also to put an odd spin on the "genocide" thing, Arturis' race isn't wiped out, it's assimilated and as small a chance of them ever being freed of the Borg, there is one. If 8472 went on cleaning all space of life as they presented their intentions, they'd all be dead.

I'll also add the the sheer scale of things as they stand in much of Trek makes "genocide" lose much of its meaning. The Dominion War was a stalemate that checked a Dominion advance into the AQ, no races were exterminated and yet billions died as a result. Is it any less genocide as a result?

That then makes me wonder what people in the past would think of being told of the death count of wars from the 20th Century onward.

[bronnt]

It's a fallacy to assume that you have the right to communicate with everyone and get involved in their business, the prudent course of action would've been to leave Borg space and not get involved. If that was inconvenient then tough, it's better than getting squashed between a superpower and an ultrapower.

But that doesn't excuse 8472 from assuming that there were no innocent bystanders. At their first meeting, Voyager didn't open fire on 8472 despite spending several minutes looking around. They didn't open fire after one of them nearly punched Harry Kim to death. They didn't try to return fire after 8472 shot on them while they were retreating. They were undoubtedly the aggressors when it came to Voyager. They showed little compunction about blowing up a freaking planet, which makes me wonder how many other planets of innocent civilians they might have terminated in their inability to recognize any difference between Borg an other species in the area.

I can't blame Janeway or the Voyager crew for considering 8472 a bigger threat. Yes, I agree they shouldn't have cooperated with the Borg at all, but this puts them in a very fine dilemma: they're one relatively small starship. If 8472 was a true threat, they didn't have the resources of Starfleet to cooperate with. If they'd had the capacity to get home and share their nanoprobe cure, then maybe Starfleet could synthesize a defense-they eventually did create weapons to fight the Borg. But without any back-up, using the resources of the Collective to hold off a greater evil might have made sense. That seemed to be the decision to make at the time the episode aired, though it was retconned into "Janeway is a credulous idiot who helped the evil empire fight its innocent victims."

Ideally, Voyager would have waited and monitored the situation. You could hold onto this potential countermeasure while seeing if 8472 might stop with destroying the Borg while letting the two powers fight it out. You could even wait for 8472 to whittle down the collective to a shell of its former self before offering any aid, potentially neutralizing both belligerents. I'm just not sure how much of an option it was when 8472 was hostile to you every time you saw them, and they can easily annihilate you if they have more than one vessel in any place.

In Arturis case, I think it would have been good if they'd pushed back explaining what they knew/thought of Species 8472 and provided a dark contrast to his outrage - that his race was effectively screwed no matter what Voyager or anyone else could have done all that would have changed would be if the Borg or 8472 would have finished them off, but doing so while acknowledging the grief someone in his case would feel being the last survivor of his race.

That's the other reason "Night" had the potential to be a great follow-up-to let her wallow in self-doubt following this realization. She had to always intellectually know that sparing the Borg meant that the Borg could continue to create new victims. Even if she was completely in the right, seeing upclose evidence of the personal tragedy can be heartbreaking. She doesn't WANT to make those decisions even if sometimes they are forced upon her. Instead, she's reflecting solely on the Caretaker decision and the events of Scorpion or this episode aren't mentioned. They also frame it as "She's been too busy to reflect on it," despite all the episodes they've shown where nothing is going on-"Resolutions" for example, where she had 3 months being stranded on a planet. Or the whole month that passed in "Tuvix" when nothing was going on. They should have made a clearer connection to "Hope and Fear" and the accumulation of all the decisions she's had to make that are weighing her down.

[Morgaine]

I never said 8472 were being particularly reasonable. But then that's part of my point, it's arrogant and presumptive to just assume you have the right to interfere and get in the middle of things every time and that your mission to get home means you can always just find a way through wherever you want.
Sometimes your presence isn't needed or wanted, and that's something Janeway often has trouble understanding eventhough ither times she worships the Prime Directive above all else.

Now that said I'm fine with Janeway doing this anyway with the information she had, and making a mistake.
But like I said it's the fact that she brushes it off and moves on without issue that gets to me.

The character of Arturis had great potential to be an antagonist to show the flaws and weaknesses of Janeway and in turn show his own as a recurring character. Which in turn could make Janeway descend into self doubt as you point out.
If you think about it, they started with similar goals. Janeway wanted to protect her crew and get them home by any means, Arturis wanted to protect his people and family from the Borg. In the war, Janeway's hope became the Borg, Arturis' was 8472. Janeway didn't know and maybe didn't care about the consequences as long as her crew was save, and Arturis now definitely doesn't care about the consequences as long as he gets his revenge.

They could even have an arc where Arturis actually sees how repentant Janeway is, and his resolve against the careless monster he constructed in his mind starts to crumble - and I'm sure Ray Wise could've pulled that off.

In the end like a lot of Voyager the problem here is they had a great idea and did very little with it.

[Durandal_1707]

^ Dang, I'd watch that.

[Beastro]

I never said 8472 were being particularly reasonable. But then that's part of my point, it's arrogant and presumptive to just assume you have the right to interfere and get in the middle of things every time and that your mission to get home means you can always just find a way through wherever you want.
Sometimes your presence isn't needed or wanted, and that's something Janeway often has trouble understanding eventhough ither times she worships the Prime Directive above all else.

Yes, that fullly applies in cases of minor races of the week and their conflicts, but not when it comes to the Borg, a galaxy spanning empire, their potential fall to a even greater power and that power seemingly intent on continuing on wiping out life in our galaxy once the Borg are out of the way.

That effects everyone.

The thing about Voyager that pisses me off isn't so much Janeway's ocnduct and the crews overall, showing people doing less than ideal things even when they're lying to themselves that they're remaining committed to their principles could be a good bedwork for a show, it's that every episode always has this feel from the shows makers pushing the audience to agree with them that it was actually right, that it's not so much the captain or crew of a fictional ship with their values maladjusted, but the makers of the show itself, at least partially.

What I mean is how Voyager is a show very much in the self-contained episodic style and how that style's mentality is essentially, that nothing else exists outside the episode, past or future, only the present and the audience is meant to perceive things that way episode to episode. It brings to mind a show I've been watching here and there lately as I've gone through an interest in Westerns, Wagon Train. The actor Robert Horton had to effectively take over creative control of his character, the wagon trains lead scout, because for example, they'd get scripts saying that one day his character was an expert horse rider befitting his character being a experienced scout, but then the next the drama would be centered around him being a novice and needing to learn.

I hate that style and I'm happy it's dying out, but only DS9 seems to have been the ST show that really resisted it to keep things consistent in that fashion.

[cdrood]

This could have been a great analysis of The Prime Directive. Typically, the PD is only applied at the planetary or star system level when it comes to socio-political conflicts. What's the rule if you're cruising through space you have no business being in from the getgo? Obviously, Voyager's situations isn't entirely their fault, although a strict application of the PD would have had them depart the quadrant in the pilot and leave the Ocampa to die. It's actually the sort of violation, I could at least get behind, although it could be a slippery slope regarding getting involved.

The same holds true with early DS9, and even TOS. Starfleet seems to have a policy that it's OK to explore anywhere we want so long as we haven't already encountered someone who claims that territory and we have a treaty with them. Note how the kept going through the wormhole AFTER learning that The Dominon pretty much claimed everything on that side. Since they hadn't established a Neutral Zone, Starfleet felt it's OK to keep sending ships through.

Now Voyager is in a precarious position. They're basically violating borders all the time and while sometimes we've seen them ask permission, they can't ALWAYS know what race's claim is valid. Outside of basic trading for survival purposes, they really shouldn't be in contact with anyone as they have no legal authority from the Federation to negotiate anything. However, extreme circumstances probably mitigates some of that.

However, part of the PD is that a captain will sacrifice her ship and crew rather than violate it. Getting involved in the Borg/8472 War could ONLY be defined as a violation. It's not even a violation that could be defined as being for the greater good since either option sucked for the people of the Delta Quadrant. The ONLY gain to be had was for her trip home and that shouldn't really be good enough reason to become involved according to the PD. Her FIRST duty, above that to her ship and crew, would have been to simply get the hell out of there and take the long way around even if it meant NEVER getting back to the Alpha Quadrant.

[bronnt]

This could have been a great analysis of The Prime Directive. Typically, the PD is only applied at the planetary or star system level when it comes to socio-political conflicts. What's the rule if you're cruising through space you have no business being in from the getgo? Obviously, Voyager's situations isn't entirely their fault, although a strict application of the PD would have had them depart the quadrant in the pilot and leave the Ocampa to die.

I'm not even sure I buy that, now that we're getting to it. Yes, Tuvok SAYS it's violating the Prime Directive, but I feel like that was bad writing thrown in because the writers thought it would raise the stakes.

While the PD prohibits interfering with the natural evolution of pre-warp civilizations, the Ocampa have had their natural development screwed up twice. First it was when the Caretaker accidentally ruined their planet, and then he did it again by turning them into the goldfish people. And the status quo was going to change regardless since he was dying, and that means an end to their current lifestyle sooner or later. Additionally, they're not a typical pre-warp civilization in that they were quite aware of other races. Perhaps meeting them yourself when they aren't aware of you specifically still violates the PD, but that was broken by the Caretaker sending his scraps down to the Ocampa (fridge logic: why send the failed survivors of his attempts to reproduce down to the planet? Supposedly it's to try to get them medical help, but wouldn't sending Torres and Kim back to their own functioning vessels for medical treatment be more likely to help?).

The other main part of the PD is to noninterference in purely internal matters. Since this was a matter involving Caretaker technology, the Ocampan planet, and the Kazon, it's not purely internal. In fact, it seems like the PD would generally encourage protecting a defenseless species from being destroyed or taken advantage of by a different space-faring power; the spirit of the PD is to prevent exploitation, after all.

There's still logical arguments to make on both sides-perhaps Voyager should have just let things unfold since they had no understanding of the politics of the area and neither the ability nor desire to maintain long-term diplomatic relations. It would have just meant letting events unfold the same way as if Voyager had never arrived. That said, when you have the ability to prevent a disaster that might doom a whole species, there's probably some moral responsibility to act, especially if it's on neutral ground as far as the PD is concerned.