Is Kylo Ren a Weak Villain? (Films Only)

[CharlesPhipps]

It's pretty much any 90's kid that took Darth Vader seriously. Darth Vader wouldn't throw a tantrum in the control room really; though it's not beyond Anakin really.

Mind you, Vader does kill people randomly because he's pissed off.

[Winter]

It's pretty much any 90's kid that took Darth Vader seriously. Darth Vader wouldn't throw a tantrum in the control room really; though it's not beyond Anakin really.

Mind you, Vader does kill people randomly because he's pissed off.

Not really. Going by just the films everyone Anakin/Vader killed made sense. The Sand People he killed was because they killed his mom and he was blinded by rage and killed them all. Dooku was killed as revenge for the lose of his arm. The Jedi he killed to appease Palpatine to save Padme's life and the Separatist leaders was to end the war. Padme he chocked in a moment of blind anger. Obi-Wan was a, more or less, honorable duel to the death. The Rebels in both Rogue One and A New Hope were combatance in a war and all done quick and cleanly. Torturing Luke's friends was done to draw Luke into a trap and the few officers he killed while working for the Empire (two in total) were because they screwed up.

The only instance of Vader hurting anyone because he was pissed was in ANH when an officer insulted him and when asked to stop killing him Vader complied.

And to be fair to Kylo, he also doesn't kill anyone in a blind rage. He breaks shit, sure, but the only people on his side that he's killed was about 5 or so and in terms of combat he also doesn't kill anyone because he's pissed. Even killing Han and Snoke was done when he was calm. The issue is his tantrum and a problem with Kylo Ren as a villain is the fact that the filmmakers don't really seem to know if he's supposed to be a serious threat or not.

Look at how everyone talks about him, it's usually in fear or talking about how dangerous he is and everyone who is with or against him does what they can to avoid fighting him. But then comes what he actually does as a villain which, as we've gone over, isn't much and most of what he does do doesn't really sell him as a villain it makes him come off as a joke.

Again, his first day as Leader of the First Order involves him losing his shit every time something even slightly doesn't go his way, getting cranked called by his uncle (who only died because he used a Deus Ex Machina) and showing that he clearly has no idea that he's doing.

The films SAY he's a threat but we're never SHOWN Why he's a threat since he keeps getting pwned by everyone around him and the few that don't utterly demolish him in some form still keep him on his toes. If he's a serious threat then he has to pose a threat to the heroes. If we're not suppose to take him as a serious threat then the films have to stop talking about him like he's a threat. This isn't Spaceballs where the joke is that the bad guy everyone is scared of is actually a loser for us to point and laugh at. The films want us to see Kylo as a tragic villain or hero who either brings about his own end or dies trying to make amends and yet also seem to want to make him this joke of a character who we're not suppose to take seriously.

Pick One! You Can Only Have ONE!!!

[CharlesPhipps]

The only instance of Vader hurting anyone because he was pissed was in ANH when an officer insulted him and when asked to stop killing him Vader complied.

and Captain Needa.

[Winter]

The only instance of Vader hurting anyone because he was pissed was in ANH when an officer insulted him and when asked to stop killing him Vader complied.

and Captain Needa.

Needa screwed up catching the Millennium Falcon so it is a case of screwing up rather then just being angry. Hell, even if we count Needa's death as a burst of anger Vader is still calm when he goes through with it.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

That much was discussed in the SFDebris reviews.

[Frustration]

It's the opposition of the thumb that gives the hand its clever grasp, as Lois Bujold once wrote.

Vader's big problem is that he has one very powerful technique that he has to use in all situations, even when changing things up would have been more productive. Killing every officer that fails gets rid of the incompetent ones, but it also gets rids of the competent but unlucky ones - and everyone gets snake eyes eventually.

[Swiftbow]

It's the opposition of the thumb that gives the hand its clever grasp, as Lois Bujold once wrote.

Vader's big problem is that he has one very powerful technique that he has to use in all situations, even when changing things up would have been more productive. Killing every officer that fails gets rid of the incompetent ones, but it also gets rids of the competent but unlucky ones - and everyone gets snake eyes eventually.

I always thought the implication was that Needa had screwed up a bunch of times, not just the once. Admiral Piett fails later on, but Vader doesn't do anything to him.

[Frustration]

But everyone pauses for the kill. Vader just doesn't follow through, likely because the interaction with Luke made everything else seem irrelevant.

[CharlesPhipps]

I always thought the implication was that Needa had screwed up a bunch of times, not just the once. Admiral Piett fails later on, but Vader doesn't do anything to him.

The RPG went with, "Piett pissed himself with fear waiting to be executed at the end of ESB but the events of meeting his son had left Darth Vader uninterested in doing it, so he just avoided the Dark Lord until he forgot about it."

Edit:

What Frustation said.

[McAvoy]

I always thought the implication was that Needa had screwed up a bunch of times, not just the once. Admiral Piett fails later on, but Vader doesn't do anything to him.

The RPG went with, "Piett pissed himself with fear waiting to be executed at the end of ESB but the events of meeting his son had left Darth Vader uninterested in doing it, so he just avoided the Dark Lord until he forgot about it."

Edit:

What Frustation said.

I always liked that. It showed Darth Vader doing a slight shift from what he would normally do, all because of his interaction with Luke.

That slight shit becoming wider as Vader is left to his own devices until he meets with Luke again in Return of the Jedi.

There was a scene in one of the comics that showed Vader's first reaction when he learned who destroyed the first Death Star. He cracked the window he was looking out of with the Force.