Celebrating Pride Month: What is Your Favorite LGBT Story/Characters in Speculative Fiction (Canon Examples Only)

[clearspira]

Xena: Warrior Princess

I always have issues with accepting that beyond fanon. My perception of that is, that neither character was ever intended to be bisexual/lesbian, but that this is something that came along to rationalize the ever increasing fan-service based off "male gaze". They do write it with romantic overtones lateron, but it absolutely doesn't start out this way.

I think originally they wee just companions and that was that. I think fanon did direct them to the whole 'soul mates' or 'connected souls' thing they did later on. But I don't think Xena and Gabriel were bi or lesbian in the traditional way as we saw it in the series.

Maybe but the show Certainly leaned into the idea of the two being more then friends. Keep in mind that one of the last scenes Xena and Gabrielle had together was a straight up kiss on the lips. Yes it was intended as Gabrielle just giving Xena the water of life but LOOK AT THIS!!!


youtu.be/ojKGyI1TsJw

Look at the way the scene is shot, listen to the music, how Gabrielle rubs her nose against Xena's. This is framed as a romantic kiss between the two leads with the whole Water of Life thing just being a convenient excuse.

Xena and Gabrielle were really the Korrasami of their time in that the show was obviously doing eveyrthing they could to say these two were a couple in every possible way outside of Just Saying It. By today's standards it seems overly subdued but many W|W romances owe a lot to Xena and Gabrielle for pushing and outright breaking ground at the time.

Yesterdays "Overly Overt and Forced" LGBT Romance is today's "To Subtle and Not Brave Enough."

I cannot speak for the other references you mentioned. But it is the nature of story telling of characters becoming more than they were from what they were in the beginning. The series did make it seem natural as the series went on. Whether it was fanon or the writers intent is up to interviews at this point.

I think male gaze played a part in it but it obviously became something else in the end. There is a reason why Xena overtook Hercules in short order.

What's funny about the last bit as it retains to this topic is that Hercules is canonically Bisexual (I think he had like 8 boyfriends) but to changing times he was made into a heterosexual exclusive club. Xena, a character made as a spinoff of Hercules was MORE openly Bi then this incarnation of Hercules at a time when that was frowned upon. It's just something I've always found funny, how being gay in Ancient Greece was seen as perfectly normal in contrast to how it was and is viewed today. Really, it's not so much that being queer is seen as normal but rather people are realizing it's always been normal.

Well... yes and no. Homosexuality was far more to do with power than sexuality. Basically, if you were the ''bottom'' then you were considered to be a woman by society AKA ''the worst thing that a man could possibly be.'' The only way you got respect, the only way you could retain your masculinity, was to be the one doing the penetration.

One very common thing that happened in Ancient Greece was the ''master and apprentice'' relationship whereby a young boy was taken by an older man to learn the ways of life - and the adult got to have sex with you as payment. Imagine Luke and Obi Wan if Obi Wan was a paedophile.
Or in other words, not only did being ''the bottom'' make you a woman, it also signified that you were an immature boy and not a big strong man.

Homosexuality also got around adultery laws. Having sex with a man wasn't considered to be an affair. Admittedly it was very difficult for a man to get convicted of adultery back in Athens, it normally depended on who your wife's dad or brothers were, but the penalty was to have your balls dipped in hot ash and a very large vegetable such as a radish stuck up your ass. I'm genuinely not making that up. The punishment literally translates into English as ''gaping anus.'' So you can see perhaps why gay sex may have been appealing to the unfaithful man of the day.

TL;DR Ancient Greece wasn't the gay paradise that many today think it was. It was a hotbed of rape, adultery and paedophilia.

[Frustration]

The Ancient Greeks didn't embrace homosexuality generally. Grown men were not only encouraged but often expected to have sexual affairs with young boys... and to break it off when the boys grew too old and mature. Being the 'passive' participant in homosexual sex as an adult was considered shameful and effeminate.

It's not clear what the actual nature of pairbonding between warriors in Sparta was - some people have insisted the implications of sex are more metaphoric - but it is certain that warriors raped young men in that city-state.

Men were also expected to have wives. And sire children on them.

None of this really maps onto modern conceptions of homosexuality.

[hammerofglass]

The Greeks also fell into to that weird conceptual gap lots of western cultures had that they literally could not conceive of women being mutually attracted. Which leads to hilarity like so-gay-two-terms-for-gay-women-are-references-to-her Sappho having all sorts of stories made up long after she was dead about how she was totally only into men you guys.

[Frustration]

It's entirely possible that Sappho turned to intimate female company because she couldn't have a relationship with a man where she wouldn't be subordinated. Who can say?

The ancient world didn't have the modern concept of lesbianism any more than it did of male homosexuality.

[TGLS]

Grown men were not only encouraged but often expected to have sexual affairs with young boys... and to break it off when the boys grew too old and mature.

Well, the boys the ancient Greeks pursued in the pederasty were pretty much of the same age as the girls they married. And the 'old and mature' part is at least partially because the boys became social equals. The Romans, who had similar mores to the Ancient Greeks, were OK with the receptive party being an entertainer or a slave.

The sexual mores of classical Europe were weird.

None of this really maps onto modern conceptions of homosexuality.

Yeah well, I don't think they even had a modern conception of heterosexuality either. If the Ancient Greeks heard about pegging, I bet they'd treat the receiving men the same as the ones in same sex relationships. Their mores had more to do what they were doing, as opposed to who they were doing it with.

[McAvoy]

It does amuse me when some use Ancient Greek as an example of acceptance of homosexuality. It's not exactly the kind of image you want for modern day homosexuality.

I think time itself will sort out normalcy of homosexuality. With more and more young people willing to accept it, the more the ones who don't will become the minority.

Or we could hope. Putting a gay couple in a movie is basically making the movie 'woke'. So I am not sure. It's as if, these people are willing to accept homosexuals exist, but not willing to see it. Because politics. Or something.

I am sure clearspira has something.

[clearspira]

It does amuse me when some use Ancient Greek as an example of acceptance of homosexuality. It's not exactly the kind of image you want for modern day homosexuality.

I think time itself will sort out normalcy of homosexuality. With more and more young people willing to accept it, the more the ones who don't will become the minority.

Or we could hope. Putting a gay couple in a movie is basically making the movie 'woke'. So I am not sure. It's as if, these people are willing to accept homosexuals exist, but not willing to see it. Because politics. Or something.

I am sure clearspira has something.

Thank you for asking. As I said in the other thread, if you want LGBT to be accepted, you need to treat it like heterosexuality is in movies AKA flippantly. No attention at all is drawn to heterosexual relationships whatsoever. They are just there. But homosexual relationships? They are still treated like selling points. Look at the Eternals. Disney went all out on telling the world beforehand that it was ''the most diverse'' cast ever and that there was ''the first non-binary character''. And it was slaughtered right out of the gate.
Just... make a film. Put your alphabets in there by all means. But don't tell anyone going in. Just put them in there, let people go and see them for themselves and make up their own minds. Don't give the homophobes on the internet the chance to gaslight for a month beforehand.

If you want to normalise something the last thing you should do is to draw attention to it.

And shall I tell you how I know that this will work? Because that is how it used to be back in the nineties. There were gays and blacks everywhere. And no one cared. Its only recently that studios have tried to sell themselves on having ''diverse'' casts - and then get rid of those same diverse casts for the Chinese release as they don't give a fuck about you only money. But I digress.

[McAvoy]

It does amuse me when some use Ancient Greek as an example of acceptance of homosexuality. It's not exactly the kind of image you want for modern day homosexuality.

I think time itself will sort out normalcy of homosexuality. With more and more young people willing to accept it, the more the ones who don't will become the minority.

Or we could hope. Putting a gay couple in a movie is basically making the movie 'woke'. So I am not sure. It's as if, these people are willing to accept homosexuals exist, but not willing to see it. Because politics. Or something.

I am sure clearspira has something.

Thank you for asking. As I said in the other thread, if you want LGBT to be accepted, you need to treat it like heterosexuality is in movies AKA flippantly. No attention at all is drawn to heterosexual relationships whatsoever. They are just there. But homosexual relationships? They are still treated like selling points. Look at the Eternals. Disney went all out on telling the world beforehand that it was ''the most diverse'' cast ever and that there was ''the first non-binary character''. And it was slaughtered right out of the gate.
Just... make a film. Put your alphabets in there by all means. But don't tell anyone going in. Just put them in there, let people go and see them for themselves and make up their own minds. Don't give the homophobes on the internet the chance to gaslight for a month beforehand.

If you want to normalise something the last thing you should do is to draw attention to it.

And shall I tell you how I know that this will work? Because that is how it used to be back in the nineties. There were gays and blacks everywhere. And no one cared. Its only recently that studios have tried to sell themselves on having ''diverse'' casts - and then get rid of those same diverse casts for the Chinese release as they don't give a fuck about you only money. But I digress.

And thank you for answering. It's the exact response I would have expected of you.

The Eternals the movie with its flaws, showed a perfectly fine representation of a homosexual family with a child. It is what you would no less expect from a heterosexual family with a kid. Eternals has its own issues but the way they protrayed homosexuality in a normal way wasn't it.

You want to know why no attention is brought to heterosexual scenes? Because it's everywhere. Everyone knows it. Because it happens everywhere, and is considered the norm. We accept it. We don't cringe when two fictional heterosexual characters kiss. Bit apparently people do when homosexuals do. We laugh when two straight males are forced to kiss. Like a slap to the gay community like it's a bad thing. But it's comedy.

I remember the 90's well and it was not some utopia of sexuality like you think it was.

Perhaps Hollywood is over doing it with the homosexual character. Maybe not.

[Winter]

It does amuse me when some use Ancient Greek as an example of acceptance of homosexuality. It's not exactly the kind of image you want for modern day homosexuality.

I think time itself will sort out normalcy of homosexuality. With more and more young people willing to accept it, the more the ones who don't will become the minority.

Or we could hope. Putting a gay couple in a movie is basically making the movie 'woke'. So I am not sure. It's as if, these people are willing to accept homosexuals exist, but not willing to see it. Because politics. Or something.

I am sure clearspira has something.

Thank you for asking. As I said in the other thread, if you want LGBT to be accepted, you need to treat it like heterosexuality is in movies AKA flippantly. No attention at all is drawn to heterosexual relationships whatsoever. They are just there. But homosexual relationships? They are still treated like selling points. Look at the Eternals. Disney went all out on telling the world beforehand that it was ''the most diverse'' cast ever and that there was ''the first non-binary character''. And it was slaughtered right out of the gate.
Just... make a film. Put your alphabets in there by all means. But don't tell anyone going in. Just put them in there, let people go and see them for themselves and make up their own minds. Don't give the homophobes on the internet the chance to gaslight for a month beforehand.

If you want to normalise something the last thing you should do is to draw attention to it.

And shall I tell you how I know that this will work? Because that is how it used to be back in the nineties. There were gays and blacks everywhere. And no one cared. Its only recently that studios have tried to sell themselves on having ''diverse'' casts - and then get rid of those same diverse casts for the Chinese release as they don't give a fuck about you only money. But I digress.

And thank you for answering. It's the exact response I would have expected of you.

The Eternals the movie with its flaws, showed a perfectly fine representation of a homosexual family with a child. It is what you would no less expect from a heterosexual family with a kid. Eternals has its own issues but the way they protrayed homosexuality in a normal way wasn't it.

You want to know why no attention is brought to heterosexual scenes? Because it's everywhere. Everyone knows it. Because it happens everywhere, and is considered the norm. We accept it. We don't cringe when two fictional heterosexual characters kiss. Bit apparently people do when homosexuals do. We laugh when two straight males are forced to kiss. Like a slap to the gay community like it's a bad thing. But it's comedy.

I remember the 90's well and it was not some utopia of sexuality like you think it was.

Perhaps Hollywood is over doing it with the homosexual character. Maybe not.

Exactly, I'm trans and that is something I CAN'T say in public because I live in a place where that could get me in trouble and if I even so much as HINTED at being a trans lesbian back in the 90's I could have been bullied or even killed in some places. I brought up Ancient Greek NOT as an example we should all see as inspiration but rather to show that if you had characters or even Gods or Demigods be openly queer it WASN'T seen as unusual. There are Many MANY fucked up elements in Ancient Greek and Greek Mythology but that's true of any culture of the past and many other modern ones but the fact that being queer wasn't viewed in a negative light is fascinating.

But time's changed and at some point being gay, bi or trans was something viewed in a negative light and something others should punish people for. To look at the 90's and the time before that if a character was queer in anyway, shape or form, they were written as either a villain or as a victim. Even Xena which killed it's lead character when it was becoming obvious that she and Gabriella were romantically involved which is something EVERYONE called out the show on.

The reason stories today make a big deal about queer characters being at the center of the story AND LIVING is because we've spent literally centuries being made out as evil or to be killed. Even stories MADE by queer people had to kill off the queer lead. Lost and Delirious had it's main character go insane after her girlfriend broke up with her and then committed suicide and that was written by a queer director.

Queer character getting to not only live but to be the hero of the day is becoming the new normal. Korra and Asami holding hands as they walk off into the metaphorical sunset, The Owl House having a bi lead and her lesbian love interest and being presented as a healthy couple, Catra and Adora as two messed up teens who better themselves and save the day with their love and get to go on with their lives. Even the Kyoshi novels present a Same Sex relationship as a big deal because Korrasami couldn't be more open because the standards and practices at the time but it can now be more open.

TL;DR Today we ARE treating LGBT characters and stories as normal because people realized that the treatment of the LGBT as being something to be ashamed of was a BAD thing and since Hollywood was a major player in perpetuating that myth it trying to be more inclusive is a basically trying to make up for the sins of the past and to say to the queer community "We were wrong, we're sorry and we want to make it up to you."

A lot of queer people, myself included WISH we had the stories of today back when we were growing up. I wish I had novels like Dreadnought, shows like Korra, Steven Universe, She-Ra and Adventure time. Movies like Eternals or comics like Batwoman because it would show the world that there is nothing wrong with us. We can be heroes and we can fight alongside other heroes who treat us as if being queer was normal.

The 90's was a Terrifying time to live as a trans girl who couldn't be herself and the world making me think that there was something wrong with me. Today, you can have a trans girl as the lead in the story and be flawed but still a good person and it's a story that EVERYONE (not counting bigoted idiots) can enjoy.

[hammerofglass]

It's not even just nice to see, it's information being available in the pop culture zeitgeist. If my parents or I had known what gender dysphoria/euphoria was in the early 90's I would have known I was trans when I was six instead of taking decades to figure it out. That wasn't even an acceptance problem, the framing just wasn't there.

If you'd handed me Dreadnought at any age I would have figured out "oh shit this is me" halfway through the first chapter.