Enterprise - Stigma

[Riedquat]

I'd point out that Spock took it as a given that Vulcans were inherently superior to humans and pointed it out at every opportunity.

Remember "Encounter at Farpoint" where Data states that he is superior to humans? He wasn't being racist. He was merely stating the truth as an emotionless being would.

Same with Vulcans. Better in every way except for perhaps the Ponn Farr. Stronger, faster, smarter, even biologically. Sunny day? Inner eyelid. Thin atmosphere? Bigger lungs. They are just stating the truth. Difference is of course that Vulcans aren't truly emotionless. So when Pulsaki taunts Data it comes off as bullying, when McCoy taunts Spock or Paris taunts Tuvok it comes off as friends ribbing each other.

That's where they failed with T'Pol and the baseball Vulcans from DS9. They really do come off as racists.

I'd say that sort of claim about being "superior" is pretty damned obnoxious and arrogant. Better at specific tasks, yes, but would you analyse people by those same measures, line them up, and point to the person at the end of the line and say "that person's superior to the rest of you"? I hope not.

Also "superior" is a meaningless concept without emotion, since the idea of something being worth doing is absurd without emotion. No emotion and you've no reason to put more weight on living over dying.

[Riedquat]

I excluded Spock and Tuvok because they are main cast members , and as such were always (at least in the eras of television in which these series were made) going to be written to be likable or to be somewhat unique or different from other representatives of their races. It's the secondary characters, the guest characters, the recurring ones, etc., who are usually used to show us what the entire people and culture is like. Heck, even by the time we got to the xenophobic Enterprise Vulcans the same thing was done with T'Pol: her people and culture were one way, but she was a bit different.

I think it's worth including them, although you have to make some adjustments for Spock being half-human. There's no particular reason for them being different, main cast members are usually going to be our representatives and understanding of those races. Worf's background makes it clear that he isn't quite that for Klingons (there are enough stories looking in to that), but we probably get most of our view on, say, Trills from Dax.

The main cast will be the best examples because the writers and actors will have had the most time getting to know the characters.

[clearspira]

I'd point out that Spock took it as a given that Vulcans were inherently superior to humans and pointed it out at every opportunity.

Remember "Encounter at Farpoint" where Data states that he is superior to humans? He wasn't being racist. He was merely stating the truth as an emotionless being would.

Same with Vulcans. Better in every way except for perhaps the Ponn Farr. Stronger, faster, smarter, even biologically. Sunny day? Inner eyelid. Thin atmosphere? Bigger lungs. They are just stating the truth. Difference is of course that Vulcans aren't truly emotionless. So when Pulsaki taunts Data it comes off as bullying, when McCoy taunts Spock or Paris taunts Tuvok it comes off as friends ribbing each other.

That's where they failed with T'Pol and the baseball Vulcans from DS9. They really do come off as racists.

I'd say that sort of claim about being "superior" is pretty damned obnoxious and arrogant. Better at specific tasks, yes, but would you analyse people by those same measures, line them up, and point to the person at the end of the line and say "that person's superior to the rest of you"? I hope not.

Also "superior" is a meaningless concept without emotion, since the idea of something being worth doing is absurd without emotion. No emotion and you've no reason to put more weight on living over dying.

We already do that. Its called ''being picked for a football team at school''. You may not be suprised to learn that I was always one of the last to be picked. Every week I was lined up in a row and weighed up by the either the teacher or the other kids and assigned a value. But I'm not bitter about it because even then and especially now I see the logic in it. They had superior skills, superior height, superior bodies. They were superior to me when it came to football. Maybe selection is different today I don't know, but that is how it happened back in my day.

I also disagree with the idea that an emotionless being cannot weigh up what is superior. Vulcans as we have established are not emotionless, they are emotionally repressed and thus are just as arrogant as we are deep down. Data on the other hand is merely thinking like a computer. Humans are inferior to Data. We're weaker, slower, dumber. Its not arrogance to say that. Its stating a fact. How many TNG plots were resolved simply because Data is better than us?

Besides, this is also where I throw in my headcanon that Data does in fact have emotions they are just being dampened. The only thing that the emotion chip did was fully unlock his systems. Would an emotionless being really have an urge to better himself, to paint, to dance, to write poetry? What about the time that he nearly killed Kivas Fajo? I reckon that after Lore's failure, Dr Soong decided to introduce Data to emotions in a phased way as opposed to giving them to him all at once.

[stryke]

What about the time that he nearly killed Kivas Fajo?

I'd give you the others maybe. That one though I'd hate to put down to emotions. The moment where you see Data processing the variables of just how vile Kivas Fajo is right now and that after doing that he concludes this cannot be permitted to continue is the moment that makes that episode as good as it is.

Now Data rubbing his face in at the end however now that is one satisfied smug android.

[Riedquat]

We already do that. Its called ''being picked for a football team at school''. You may not be suprised to learn that I was always one of the last to be picked. Every week I was lined up in a row and weighed up by the either the teacher or the other kids and assigned a value. But I'm not bitter about it because even then and especially now I see the logic in it. They had superior skills, superior height, superior bodies. They were superior to me when it came to football. Maybe selection is different today I don't know, but that is how it happened back in my day.

So for that specific task, sure, although "better" is a word I'd prefer. But are those people picked before you superior human beings, a word that carries connotations of more worthy, more deserving to exist? There's a long unpleasant history of what happens when some groups start thinking they're superior to others. Even though they may be better at certain things (that that's mostly in their imagination is beside the point).

I can accept person A is better at something than person B. I will NOT accept that you can say, without any specific qualification, just overall and in general, that person A is a superior being to person B.

I also disagree with the idea that an emotionless being cannot weigh up what is superior. Vulcans as we have established are not emotionless, they are emotionally repressed and thus are just as arrogant as we are deep down. Data on the other hand is merely thinking like a computer. Humans are inferior to Data. We're weaker, slower, dumber. Its not arrogance to say that. Its stating a fact. How many TNG plots were resolved simply because Data is better than us?

So? That just means "better suited to certain tasks." Not somehow more deserving of existance. Especially compared to something incapable of getting joy out of that existence. So what if you're highly capable at doing all sorts of things, if you can't get anything meaningful to yourself out of that?

Besides, this is also where I throw in my headcanon that Data does in fact have emotions they are just being dampened. The only thing that the emotion chip did was fully unlock his systems. Would an emotionless being really have an urge to better himself, to paint, to dance, to write poetry? What about the time that he nearly killed Kivas Fajo? I reckon that after Lore's failure, Dr Soong decided to introduce Data to emotions in a phased way as opposed to giving them to him all at once.

Precisely, hence my rejection of "emotionless," because an emotionless being has no incentive to do anything unless it's hardcoded (software in an android, autonomous instinct in an animal).

[Durandal_1707]

Besides, this is also where I throw in my headcanon that Data does in fact have emotions they are just being dampened. The only thing that the emotion chip did was fully unlock his systems. Would an emotionless being really have an urge to better himself, to paint, to dance, to write poetry? What about the time that he nearly killed Kivas Fajo?

Yeah, this is the main reason that I always liked Spock better than Data. Data always made me want to go inside the TV, shake him, and say: So you want to be human? Your greatest desire is to have emotions? Desire is an emotion! If you want things, you have emotions.

I never liked that self-loathing part of Data's character. What was Counselor Troi doing as a therapist on that ship? She should have been telling him to embrace his own awesomeness. That ship would have blown up a hundred times over if Data hadn't been who he was.

[Fianna]

When Vulcans talk about their superiority to humans, it's usually not about physical abilities, but about the whole devotion to logic and rejection of emotion thing.

This is where Star Trek's Planet of Hats tendencies confuse the matter. Because "Vulcan" is not just a biological species; it also refers to people who follow a specific philosophy and way of life, one based on the teaching of Surak. While Vulcans don't have to do as Surak taught, and theoretically a non-Vulcan could adopt the Vulcan way of life, in practice the species and the philosophical order are one in the same. As such, we don't really have the terminology to differentiate the two.

[CharlesPhipps]

When Vulcans talk about their superiority to humans, it's usually not about physical abilities, but about the whole devotion to logic and rejection of emotion thing.

This is where Star Trek's Planet of Hats tendencies confuse the matter. Because "Vulcan" is not just a biological species; it also refers to people who follow a specific philosophy and way of life, one based on the teaching of Surak. While Vulcans don't have to do as Surak taught, and theoretically a non-Vulcan could adopt the Vulcan way of life, in practice the species and the philosophical order are one in the same. As such, we don't really have the terminology to differentiate the two.

I mean, yeah we do, we call non-Surak Vulcans what they are: Romulans.



We also have the name for the Vulcans who don't follow logic. It's like the Qunari in Dragon Age. If you're not a Qun follower, you're Vashoth or Tal'Vashoth.

[Scififan]

I'd point out that Spock took it as a given that Vulcans were inherently superior to humans and pointed it out at every opportunity.

Remember "Encounter at Farpoint" where Data states that he is superior to humans? He wasn't being racist. He was merely stating the truth as an emotionless being would.

Same with Vulcans. Better in every way except for perhaps the Ponn Farr. Stronger, faster, smarter, even biologically. Sunny day? Inner eyelid. Thin atmosphere? Bigger lungs. They are just stating the truth. Difference is of course that Vulcans aren't truly emotionless. So when Pulsaki taunts Data it comes off as bullying, when McCoy taunts Spock or Paris taunts Tuvok it comes off as friends ribbing each other.

That's where they failed with T'Pol and the baseball Vulcans from DS9. They really do come off as racists.

I'd say that sort of claim about being "superior" is pretty damned obnoxious and arrogant. Better at specific tasks, yes, but would you analyse people by those same measures, line them up, and point to the person at the end of the line and say "that person's superior to the rest of you"? I hope not.

Also "superior" is a meaningless concept without emotion, since the idea of something being worth doing is absurd without emotion. No emotion and you've no reason to put more weight on living over dying.

We already do that. Its called ''being picked for a football team at school''. You may not be suprised to learn that I was always one of the last to be picked. Every week I was lined up in a row and weighed up by the either the teacher or the other kids and assigned a value. But I'm not bitter about it because even then and especially now I see the logic in it. They had superior skills, superior height, superior bodies. They were superior to me when it came to football. Maybe selection is different today I don't know, but that is how it happened back in my day.

I also disagree with the idea that an emotionless being cannot weigh up what is superior. Vulcans as we have established are not emotionless, they are emotionally repressed and thus are just as arrogant as we are deep down. Data on the other hand is merely thinking like a computer. Humans are inferior to Data. We're weaker, slower, dumber. Its not arrogance to say that. Its stating a fact. How many TNG plots were resolved simply because Data is better than us?

Besides, this is also where I throw in my headcanon that Data does in fact have emotions they are just being dampened. The only thing that the emotion chip did was fully unlock his systems. Would an emotionless being really have an urge to better himself, to paint, to dance, to write poetry? What about the time that he nearly killed Kivas Fajo? I reckon that after Lore's failure, Dr Soong decided to introduce Data to emotions in a phased way as opposed to giving them to him all at once.

Well, his decision to kill Kivas Fajo was somewhat based on logic. If he didn't kill him, he would kill and submit people to his selfish, evil ways. The guy was affable but in the end a sociopath.

[TGLS]

Well, his decision to kill Kivas Fajo was somewhat based on logic. If he didn't kill him, he would kill and submit people to his selfish, evil ways. The guy was affable but in the end a sociopath.

Well, yes that's true. But you can't use logic alone to determine whether it's better for people to be forced to comply under pain of death or not. A perfectly logical robot still must follow Hume's Law.