Mirror, Mirror vs Yesterday's Enterprise vs Far Beyond the Stars vs Living Witness

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Does Year of Hell for Voyager count as an alternate reality? That was a great two parter.

I would say no because the origin and through point of time is regular reality.

Ahh but it got erased and never happened. Not quite a what if like Nazi Federation or Yesterday's Enterprise.

I think it stands out more as a compromise for a more ambitious concept since the idea originally was to make it a season long arc.

Pity we didn't.

Just saying it seems like an alternate reality since in one universe you got the Time Ship of Doom causing such a big mess and one where there isnt.

Also brings up another idea. Would erasing the civilizations from time make it that as an alternate universe where they still exist or not?

It's just a reset button. There's no transformative "take" on the characters. It's just a critical breakdown, which isn't for nothing.

[McAvoy]

Does Year of Hell for Voyager count as an alternate reality? That was a great two parter.

I would say no because the origin and through point of time is regular reality.

Ahh but it got erased and never happened. Not quite a what if like Nazi Federation or Yesterday's Enterprise.

I think it stands out more as a compromise for a more ambitious concept since the idea originally was to make it a season long arc.

Pity we didn't.

Just saying it seems like an alternate reality since in one universe you got the Time Ship of Doom causing such a big mess and one where there isnt.

Also brings up another idea. Would erasing the civilizations from time make it that as an alternate universe where they still exist or not?

It's just a reset button. There's no transformative "take" on the characters. It's just a critical breakdown, which isn't for nothing.

I don't know. Janeway did go through a bit of transformation before the big reset button happened.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Does Year of Hell for Voyager count as an alternate reality? That was a great two parter.

I would say no because the origin and through point of time is regular reality.

Ahh but it got erased and never happened. Not quite a what if like Nazi Federation or Yesterday's Enterprise.

I think it stands out more as a compromise for a more ambitious concept since the idea originally was to make it a season long arc.

Pity we didn't.

Just saying it seems like an alternate reality since in one universe you got the Time Ship of Doom causing such a big mess and one where there isnt.

Also brings up another idea. Would erasing the civilizations from time make it that as an alternate universe where they still exist or not?

It's just a reset button. There's no transformative "take" on the characters. It's just a critical breakdown, which isn't for nothing.

I don't know. Janeway did go through a bit of transformation before the big reset button happened.

It's no different from any other episode in that sense.

I'm not sure you're getting what alternate reality entails. It's not something that applies to a retcon of sorts. They went through that point in time, then went through it again. There's no alternate reality on a character basis. It'd be like saying that every episode is an alternate reality because there's a new life form every time they use the transporter.

[McAvoy]

Does Year of Hell for Voyager count as an alternate reality? That was a great two parter.

I would say no because the origin and through point of time is regular reality.

Ahh but it got erased and never happened. Not quite a what if like Nazi Federation or Yesterday's Enterprise.

I think it stands out more as a compromise for a more ambitious concept since the idea originally was to make it a season long arc.

Pity we didn't.

Just saying it seems like an alternate reality since in one universe you got the Time Ship of Doom causing such a big mess and one where there isnt.

Also brings up another idea. Would erasing the civilizations from time make it that as an alternate universe where they still exist or not?

It's just a reset button. There's no transformative "take" on the characters. It's just a critical breakdown, which isn't for nothing.

I don't know. Janeway did go through a bit of transformation before the big reset button happened.

It's no different from any other episode in that sense.

I'm not sure you're getting what alternate reality entails. It's not something that applies to a retcon of sorts. They went through that point in time, then went through it again. There's no alternate reality on a character basis. It'd be like saying that every episode is an alternate reality because there's a new life form every time they use the transporter.

Does the Time Machine affect time?

Does the Time Machine creates alternate realities when it erases a civilization?

Did the destruction of the Time Machine create an different reality where the Time Machine isn't built?

Is the new timeline different than what happened before the destruction of the Time Machine?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Does the Time Machine affect time?

Does the Time Machine creates alternate realities when it erases a civilization?

Did the destruction of the Time Machine create an different reality where the Time Machine isn't built?

Is the new timeline different than what happened before the destruction of the Time Machine?

I'm really sorry, but, neat.

We're talking about stories and narratives here, and not trying to write a thesaurus. Year of Hell is a time travel story. When one is watching it there is no value of alternate realities that is involved with the plot.

Nobody sits down to talk about Back to the Future 1 as an alternate reality movie.

Note that Star Trek '09 has to distinctly be called an alternate timeline movie and neither a time travel nor an alternate reality movie, all despite being very well both. If you watch just the movie when it came out, there's not much in the way of not calling it a time travel movie because nobody can argue continuity-wise that it isn't. It's only the later works and political fanbase that shapes it otherwise.

This is all while Back to the Future 2 does actually use the basis for alternative reality nearing the middle of the film. But I would still contend that people don't talk about it squarely as an alternate reality movie. The alteration of reality is more like a McGuffin.


I'm also aware that Living Witness isn't a physical reality, but its basis for "not having existed in the established reality" qualifies it for the narrative purpose.

[hammerofglass]

Note that Star Trek '09 has to distinctly be called an alternate timeline movie and neither a time travel nor an alternate reality movie, all despite being very well both. If you watch just the movie when it came out, there's not much in the way of not calling it a time travel movie because nobody can argue continuity-wise that it isn't. It's only the later works and political fanbase that shapes it otherwise.

I don't understand your argument here. Why can't it just be all three of those at once? They aren't mutually exclusive.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Note that Star Trek '09 has to distinctly be called an alternate timeline movie and neither a time travel nor an alternate reality movie, all despite being very well both. If you watch just the movie when it came out, there's not much in the way of not calling it a time travel movie because nobody can argue continuity-wise that it isn't. It's only the later works and political fanbase that shapes it otherwise.

I don't understand your argument here. Why can't it just be all three of those at once? They aren't mutually exclusive.

There, the issue only arises at what it is specifically or predominantly. As far as actually watching the movie goes, it's nearly as much a time traveling movie as it is a parallel universe. But it "officially" does invalidate aspects of both. Also, it departs from the sci fi employed in Trek thus far with regard to quantum universes, which can serve as the underlying basis.

Timelines are specifically depicted to have channeling effects between the temporal realities. Thus going back in time and acting out there has effects in the relative future's reality. I'm not sure that it's in the movie, but Trek purveyors explicitly endorsed the idea that effects in the Paramount version of Star Trek have no effect on the happenings of the CBS version of Star Trek. In effect it is not an official timeline by sci fi standards.

Parallel realities exist in the form of the Mirror Universe, the one Janeway encounters, and also the episode where Worf shifts between realities (which is also that explains the parallel structure). They all ostensibly share the same point in time -- just not space -- which is what is invalidated in the Trek '09 movie. Not a big deal really, just peculiar by conventional consideration.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Does the Time Machine affect time?

Does the Time Machine creates alternate realities when it erases a civilization?

Did the destruction of the Time Machine create an different reality where the Time Machine isn't built?

Is the new timeline different than what happened before the destruction of the Time Machine?

Okay, so considering what the main antagonist is doing in the episode, handwaving the presence of alternate reality is rather trite. I apologize.

So, my main consideration of alternate reality specifically had to do with the characters essentially not being who they are in the show. So obviously that's dubious as to being an all encompassing stylization of the genre en masse.

[Durandal_1707]

I don't know. Janeway did go through a bit of transformation before the big reset button happened.

It's no different from any other episode in that sense.

I'm not sure you're getting what alternate reality entails. It's not something that applies to a retcon of sorts. They went through that point in time, then went through it again. There's no alternate reality on a character basis. It'd be like saying that every episode is an alternate reality because there's a new life form every time they use the transporter.

But there is, though.

The episode starts in a drastically different reality than the one it ends with. How could it not? All those species being erased from having ever evolved puts the points of departure millions or billions of years in the past. With all the ripple effects that that would cause, this should, by any measure, be as different of a universe as the Mirror is. At any rate, it should be a lot further removed than Yesterday's Enterprise with its point of departure of only 22 years in the past.

But our guys are the same in this reality, aren't they? Well no, they aren't. At the end of the episode, in the restored original timeline, Janeway does the reasonable thing when told the region is in dispute and redirects the ship to go around it instead of through it, like we'd expect. The Janeway at the beginning? She sees the dispute, and basically says screw you, your guns are smaller than ours, we're going through. Might makes right, and we'll do what we want. It's a subtle difference, but it's there; our "normal" crew would have at least listened to the Krenim and considered their point, despite them being weaker then they were.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

But our guys are the same in this reality, aren't they? Well no, they aren't. At the end of the episode, in the restored original timeline, Janeway does the reasonable thing when told the region is in dispute and redirects the ship to go around it instead of through it, like we'd expect. The Janeway at the beginning? She sees the dispute, and basically says screw you, your guns are smaller than ours, we're going through. Might makes right, and we'll do what we want. It's a subtle difference, but it's there; our "normal" crew would have at least listened to the Krenim and considered their point, despite them being weaker then they were.

So yeah but Groundhogs Day. It's a time loop in which his personal development magically transforms in the outset of one day thousands of times over. Nobody has ever referred to it as a construct of alternate reality.

Physical reality is changed in this episode, and the characters inevitably end up being a part of that manipulation. It even goes so far as to beg into the the theme quite significantly. But them being part of it is not the premise of the episode, and it also happens to not be an issue throughout the plot.

Another thing is that we're specifically seeing the change happen in the character. With all the other examples there's no precept to their alternate counterparts. Not as we see it, and/or not based in our reality (or dimension for all intents and purposes).