Riedquat wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:36 pm
This one really does say that Mariner is seriously, seriously messed up.
That later gets followed up in future seasons.
If anything, Mariner is a basket case of issues, though we still don't know how she got to that point.
I kinda feel like we do. Like Chuck said in a prev review, she is a Starfleet trust fund kid. She's been indulged and favoured, and never felt any real consequences. It is S3 before she truly starts getting pushback on this from her parents, who have explicitly said they are protecting her from consequences, by no longer giving her that protection, and she's slowly actually starting to shape up. We don't need to go that deep into her psyche to find any trauma, and in fact her "trauma" might actually be the lack of any trauma. We see this all the time in the Real World with the kids of the obscenely rich, or just in regular kids whose parents are in a position to shield them from consequences and unwilling to not indulge them all the time.
It is natural to push limits, to find where those limits actually are. Every kid does it. The problem comes in where they don't get pushback, don't have limits set, so the behaviour is constantly pushing and constantly transgressing. That is Mariner, she has the 25thC version of Affluenza.
I can buy your argument. Freeman and her father also see that too, which is why they give her the ultimatum.
That being said, she does seem to have some trauma behind her, considering some of her experiences (ex: her friend being eaten by a shapeshifter) and who she knows (ex: Worf, Kira and Quark).
That stuff, that is every day stuff in Starfleet. That is basic level Starfleet experiences. Everyone in Starfleet has that level of shit happen to them.
...so I don't think she is just a rich poser. She does have genuine Starfleet skills to back up her years of time in the force. She was also implied to have been a very good cadet in her day - something happened though that made her want to underachieve and be an annoyance to command staff.
That something was the feeling that she was special, but not actually being any more special than her fellow coworkers. That is why she is a poser. That is what she keeps tripping over, and there have been several episodes where Boimler doing better than her is the thing that bugs her the most and triggers her worst behaviours. She's under achieving because she knows she would not really stand out from the pack all that much even if she put in maximum effort, and that is what she really cannot stand about herself, that she is truly not that special.
Riedquat wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:36 pm
This one really does say that Mariner is seriously, seriously messed up.
That later gets followed up in future seasons.
If anything, Mariner is a basket case of issues, though we still don't know how she got to that point.
I kinda feel like we do. Like Chuck said in a prev review, she is a Starfleet trust fund kid. She's been indulged and favoured, and never felt any real consequences. It is S3 before she truly starts getting pushback on this from her parents, who have explicitly said they are protecting her from consequences, by no longer giving her that protection, and she's slowly actually starting to shape up. We don't need to go that deep into her psyche to find any trauma, and in fact her "trauma" might actually be the lack of any trauma. We see this all the time in the Real World with the kids of the obscenely rich, or just in regular kids whose parents are in a position to shield them from consequences and unwilling to not indulge them all the time.
It is natural to push limits, to find where those limits actually are. Every kid does it. The problem comes in where they don't get pushback, don't have limits set, so the behaviour is constantly pushing and constantly transgressing. That is Mariner, she has the 25thC version of Affluenza.
I can buy your argument. Freeman and her father also see that too, which is why they give her the ultimatum.
That being said, she does seem to have some trauma behind her, considering some of her experiences (ex: her friend being eaten by a shapeshifter) and who she knows (ex: Worf, Kira and Quark).
That stuff, that is every day stuff in Starfleet. That is basic level Starfleet experiences. Everyone in Starfleet has that level of shit happen to them.
...so I don't think she is just a rich poser. She does have genuine Starfleet skills to back up her years of time in the force. She was also implied to have been a very good cadet in her day - something happened though that made her want to underachieve and be an annoyance to command staff.
That something was the feeling that she was special, but not actually being any more special than her fellow coworkers. That is why she is a poser. That is what she keeps tripping over, and there have been several episodes where Boimler doing better than her is the thing that bugs her the most and triggers her worst behaviours. She's under achieving because she knows she would not really stand out from the pack all that much even if she put in maximum effort, and that is what she really cannot stand about herself, that she is truly not that special.
hypocratus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:46 pm
For me it isn't just the holodeck program. I can understand using the holodeck to work through psychological issues. The thing for me is forcing your "friends" to experience as well, without asking them first.
They were starting to not see her as special, as the stand out character, starting to surpass her in many ways. So she does something truly outrageous to try and knock them back into line and unsettle them about her.
hypocratus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:46 pm
For me it isn't just the holodeck program. I can understand using the holodeck to work through psychological issues. The thing for me is forcing your "friends" to experience as well, without asking them first.
Not just forcing your 'friends' to experience it, but also getting one of them to play a cultural stereotype. I can see a case that it's the worst look for her even including the pilot.
hypocratus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:46 pm
For me it isn't just the holodeck program. I can understand using the holodeck to work through psychological issues. The thing for me is forcing your "friends" to experience as well, without asking them first.
Not just forcing your 'friends' to experience it, but also getting one of them to play a cultural stereotype. I can see a case that it's the worst look for her even including the pilot.
To be fair, I think Mariner kinda knows that. She does have a self-hating vibe, it seems, from her interactions with holographic Mariner. She knows she has problems - she is just trying to drown it out with adrenaline and recklessness.
Kinda reminds me of B'Elanna Torres in the episode Extreme Risk where she deals with her angst with isolation and dangerous situations.
CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:22 pm
That is Mariner, she has the 25thC version of Affluenza.
I think your description fits her really well, and makes the most sense. I do suspect we'll get some tragedy at some point in her backstory (beyond what we know) simply because it's the easy "dramatic" thing to do, and then they'll undercut it with a joke. But realistically your explanation makes the most sense as-is. It explains the discrepancy in her apparent age, too.
Riedquat wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:36 pm
This one really does say that Mariner is seriously, seriously messed up.
That later gets followed up in future seasons.
If anything, Mariner is a basket case of issues, though we still don't know how she got to that point.
I kinda feel like we do. Like Chuck said in a prev review, she is a Starfleet trust fund kid. She's been indulged and favoured, and never felt any real consequences. It is S3 before she truly starts getting pushback on this from her parents, who have explicitly said they are protecting her from consequences, by no longer giving her that protection, and she's slowly actually starting to shape up. We don't need to go that deep into her psyche to find any trauma, and in fact her "trauma" might actually be the lack of any trauma. We see this all the time in the Real World with the kids of the obscenely rich, or just in regular kids whose parents are in a position to shield them from consequences and unwilling to not indulge them all the time.
It is natural to push limits, to find where those limits actually are. Every kid does it. The problem comes in where they don't get pushback, don't have limits set, so the behaviour is constantly pushing and constantly transgressing. That is Mariner, she has the 25thC version of Affluenza.
I still kind of like the idea that mariner is one of the kids raised on the Enterprise-D. She is the result of "Starfleets Great Experiment". The lab rats were the kids. And what trauma's they would be layered with from trying to grow up in that insane environment.
Similarly while Chuck says Kirk would be all on board with Mariner's actions in protecting the lizard people. Picard would be handing the Rodents cases of Barbecue sauce and mesquite. Because "We must honor the Prime Directive! Now here Number One, try a Kebab!"
I loved this episode. I loved the way it displayed how messed up mariner was in gory detail. It was incredibly satisfying and I would have been happy if it was the season finale. It's rich, it's character-driven, and it lays out Mariner's flaws like a buffet. It's self-aware in all the ways the first episode wasn't.
I'm sorry that this episode made Chuck so uncomfortable because I would have loved more post-episode analysis.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
I still kind of like the idea that mariner is one of the kids raised on the Enterprise-D. She is the result of "Starfleets Great Experiment". The lab rats were the kids. And what trauma's they would be layered with from trying to grow up in that insane environment.
That is just because you can't get your head around the idea of families in space, and differing cultural levels of risk tolerance. Trust me on this, the Enterprise D wouldn't even raise an eyebrow in historical levels of risk averseness. It is super safe, safer than planets in Star Trek, with only minimal risk levels. If anything, the kids on it are more likely to be affluenza victims due to the level of privilege it gives them than it is to actually traumatise them. You want trauma? Look at all the kids living on Earth and seeing V'ger bearing down on them in the sky, or the whale probe, or the stupid DS9 Coup, or, the Borg, twice, and a couple of others I'm probably forgetting. Nah, the whole families in space are so unsafe thing doesn't hold water.
I still kind of like the idea that mariner is one of the kids raised on the Enterprise-D. She is the result of "Starfleets Great Experiment". The lab rats were the kids. And what trauma's they would be layered with from trying to grow up in that insane environment.
That is just because you can't get your head around the idea of families in space, and differing cultural levels of risk tolerance. Trust me on this, the Enterprise D wouldn't even raise an eyebrow in historical levels of risk averseness. It is super safe, safer than planets in Star Trek, with only minimal risk levels. If anything, the kids on it are more likely to be affluenza victims due to the level of privilege it gives them than it is to actually traumatise them. You want trauma? Look at all the kids living on Earth and seeing V'ger bearing down on them in the sky, or the whale probe, or the stupid DS9 Coup, or, the Borg, twice, and a couple of others I'm probably forgetting. Nah, the whole families in space are so unsafe thing doesn't hold water.
Nope what you say doesn't golf water at all.
Enterprise-D faced more danger than Earth did. All of your examples with Earth have years placed between them and in some cases decades. Like V'Ger and the whale probe.
Whereas Enterprise-D faced some deadly threats that could destroy the ship far far far more often then that.
So if the theory is just Enterprise-D is correct then it's sound enough. We do not have any information on any other ship not named Enterprise until Defiant or Voyager.
For all we know the USS Galaxy had a equally adventurous time too with families on board. Or it could be any other ship that allowed families on board
But considering she knows quite a bit of famous people it is in the realm of possibility that she was around them probably with her parents.
Or she could be a cartoon character playing on fan service and not to be taken so literally.
