DS9: Prodigal Daughter

[Fianna]

It seems like there's no such thing as unclaimed space within the Alpha Quadrant. Anywhere you might go, one of the big interstellar civilizations will tell you you're in their territory (though they don't necessarily know all what's in the territory they've claimed, hence the constant missions of exploration). Given that setup, agreeing to strictly defined and supposedly permanent borders makes sense.

[McAvoy]

It seems like there's no such thing as unclaimed space within the Alpha Quadrant. Anywhere you might go, one of the big interstellar civilizations will tell you you're in their territory (though they don't necessarily know all what's in the territory they've claimed, hence the constant missions of exploration). Given that setup, agreeing to strictly defined and supposedly permanent borders makes sense.

Space is still vast in Trek. All that literal space between each solar system is still lightyears across. But at the same time I can see a major power like thd Federation being able to claim all of that vast space in between if let's say four or five systems are theirs formed in a ring, that they can claim that space.

I can only think that there was some sort of deal or agreement that with some systems the territory extends lightyears out and in others only to the limits of that solar system depending on where thatsystem is. Like the Neutral Zone. There would be a need for a buffer zone I would think.

Warp speeds may play into it too. If let's say the average speed of everyone is established at 100c (like 22nd century, then one light year is more than enough. It would take three days to travel that. Whereas let's say the average speed is 300c (23rd century) then you would need three light years for the same warning. Or 2000c (24th century) would mean 20 light years. But that is establishing sensor capabilites being the same throughout.

Who knows, the 2000c capability might be too fast for the sensor capabilites whereas 100c is even but 300c is slower than the sensor capabilities at the time. Just spewing out numbers without backing it up of course.

So I think when it comes to territory, it is possible for let's say the Federation to have spots within its territory to be not theirs and allow free movement for non-aligned worlds just due to the vastness of empty space between the systems. But at the same time claim in certain areas as theirs due to the amount of member or colony worlds surrounding that area.

Also it wouldn't surprise me that there is agreements with the non aligned worlds where they can travel and where they cannot.

Also you can assume since space is non 2D, that ships can just literally go over or below a Federation system too.

[Riedquat]

Just think of some of the actual numbers involved. The Federation sounds absudly large (thousands of light years, although my quick Googling seems to be a bit confused about whether that's across or cubic light years). That'll contain many tens of thousands of stars, maybe even millions. How's a border supposed to work with that?

[clearspira]

It seems like there's no such thing as unclaimed space within the Alpha Quadrant. Anywhere you might go, one of the big interstellar civilizations will tell you you're in their territory (though they don't necessarily know all what's in the territory they've claimed, hence the constant missions of exploration). Given that setup, agreeing to strictly defined and supposedly permanent borders makes sense.

Space is still vast in Trek. All that literal space between each solar system is still lightyears across. But at the same time I can see a major power like thd Federation being able to claim all of that vast space in between if let's say four or five systems are theirs formed in a ring, that they can claim that space.

I can only think that there was some sort of deal or agreement that with some systems the territory extends lightyears out and in others only to the limits of that solar system depending on where thatsystem is. Like the Neutral Zone. There would be a need for a buffer zone I would think.

Warp speeds may play into it too. If let's say the average speed of everyone is established at 100c (like 22nd century, then one light year is more than enough. It would take three days to travel that. Whereas let's say the average speed is 300c (23rd century) then you would need three light years for the same warning. Or 2000c (24th century) would mean 20 light years. But that is establishing sensor capabilites being the same throughout.

Who knows, the 2000c capability might be too fast for the sensor capabilites whereas 100c is even but 300c is slower than the sensor capabilities at the time. Just spewing out numbers without backing it up of course.

So I think when it comes to territory, it is possible for let's say the Federation to have spots within its territory to be not theirs and allow free movement for non-aligned worlds just due to the vastness of empty space between the systems. But at the same time claim in certain areas as theirs due to the amount of member or colony worlds surrounding that area.

Also it wouldn't surprise me that there is agreements with the non aligned worlds where they can travel and where they cannot.

Also you can assume since space is non 2D, that ships can just literally go over or below a Federation system too.

Speed is actually a great point to bring up here. 23rd-24th century warp drive is absurdly fast by real world standards and yet is still absurdly slow if you want to maintain some kind of interstellar empire. Star Wars and Stargate actually make more sense on this front because even their smallest ships can cross the galaxy in weeks. The Federation's fastest 24th century ship will take 75 years to cross half of it. I think that's also why so many planets in Trek (besides meta budget cap reasons obviously) always look so underpopulated and barren. You can never get anyone to them.

BTW, I once read an interesting study into the possibility of there being a real life Federation or Galactic Empire out there somewhere. Many scientists agree that such a thing exists it would put out so much infrared due to the power requirements required that we would stand a good chance of seeing it from Earth. This is also the argument against there being a level 3 Kardeshev scale civilisation out there. Most intelligent lifeforms in the galaxy are probably confined to their immediate vicinity and are thus unlikely to ever meet.

The counter argument to that being that such a civilisation would be so incomprehensibly ahead of us that the laws of science as we know them may not apply to them and thus looking for them using any contemporary method is futile. The ''caveman staring at an iphone'' argument. I see the logic in this but I also think its a bit of a cop-out.

[McAvoy]

That's the thing, Trek FTL is fast but not fast enough to maintain for the 8000 light year figure Picard gave. Now it's probably not a perfect or close to being a circle, but you would pretty much need to maintain three seperate fleets from each other due to the sheer amount of time to travel across the Federation. You would definitely have to maintain permanent fleets are the areas of the most hostility. Just not have a handful of ships there. It would take too long to form a fleet in response to a major threat.

We do see how many ships can be brought in a short amount of notice with Wolf 359. It took like 2 days to form a 40 ship fleet. Maybe if they had an extra day they could have had far more for that battle. I always had this idea that after Wolf 359, Starfleet decided to gather as many ships as possible for a full attack on the cube with Enterprise chasing it. So like if the Borg cube was destroyed, there would be let's say 200 ships on their way to engage the Borg or something.

[remagynona]

Just think of some of the actual numbers involved. The Federation sounds absudly large (thousands of light years, although my quick Googling seems to be a bit confused about whether that's across or cubic light years). That'll contain many tens of thousands of stars, maybe even millions. How's a border supposed to work with that?

Assuming it's a diameter it's way way more than that. As you brought up, Elite Dangerous has a generally accurate representation of star density for the Milky Way. The Bubble, centered on Earth is roughly 200-250ly in diameter depending on which angle you're looking at, and contains over 50,000 star systems. Scale that up to a state spanning thousands of light years and it would likely contain hundreds of millions to billions of star systems depending on the shape. Add in the fact that Voyager can piddle across the galaxy at only 2-3 light years per day and still come across new sentient species almost every week and you're looking at a density of intelligent civilizations in the Federation's territory alone probably numbering in the millions.

[Frustration]

Consider also that the Federation is supposed to be a collection of civilizations who associate for mutual defense and trade. Starfleet being so heavily composed of human-run ships is unrealistic, but politely ignored as a consequence of the difficulty of making convincing non-humans on a TV show.

[McAvoy]

Just think of some of the actual numbers involved. The Federation sounds absudly large (thousands of light years, although my quick Googling seems to be a bit confused about whether that's across or cubic light years). That'll contain many tens of thousands of stars, maybe even millions. How's a border supposed to work with that?

Assuming it's a diameter it's way way more than that. As you brought up, Elite Dangerous has a generally accurate representation of star density for the Milky Way. The Bubble, centered on Earth is roughly 200-250ly in diameter depending on which angle you're looking at, and contains over 50,000 star systems. Scale that up to a state spanning thousands of light years and it would likely contain hundreds of millions to billions of star systems depending on the shape. Add in the fact that Voyager can piddle across the galaxy at only 2-3 light years per day and still come across new sentient species almost every week and you're looking at a density of intelligent civilizations in the Federation's territory alone probably numbering in the millions.

8000 light years across. Not cubic light years. Because that is just 20 cubic light years. Which is way too small.

And probably not 8000 light years in diameter. Maybe just at its widest part. Could be shaped for example like a stretched kidney bean. And that's assuming that it's a solid mass. As opposed to be composed of many smaller areas under their control. So they may be 8000 light years across but it isnt all Federation.

There is the possibility that Starfleet is just the biggest and official fleet of the Federation but there are member world fleets too. Like a Vulcan or Andorian fleet for example, that could operate outside their own systems in mutual defense.

[clearspira]

Just think of some of the actual numbers involved. The Federation sounds absudly large (thousands of light years, although my quick Googling seems to be a bit confused about whether that's across or cubic light years). That'll contain many tens of thousands of stars, maybe even millions. How's a border supposed to work with that?

Assuming it's a diameter it's way way more than that. As you brought up, Elite Dangerous has a generally accurate representation of star density for the Milky Way. The Bubble, centered on Earth is roughly 200-250ly in diameter depending on which angle you're looking at, and contains over 50,000 star systems. Scale that up to a state spanning thousands of light years and it would likely contain hundreds of millions to billions of star systems depending on the shape. Add in the fact that Voyager can piddle across the galaxy at only 2-3 light years per day and still come across new sentient species almost every week and you're looking at a density of intelligent civilizations in the Federation's territory alone probably numbering in the millions.

There is the possibility that Starfleet is just the biggest and official fleet of the Federation but there are member world fleets too. Like a Vulcan or Andorian fleet for example, that could operate outside their own systems in mutual defense.

It was definitely the idea in TOS that Starfleet had layers to it as the Enterprise came under something called UESPA (United Earth Space Probe Agency) which sounds like the ''five year mission to explore strange new worlds'' arm. In the episode with the Romans the traitor captain that Kirk went to stop was directly stated to be part of the ''Merchant.'' I suppose we should also throw in the likes of ENT and ''The Undiscovered Country'' where MACOs and space marines are a thing.

Later Trek seemed to be just one big unrealistic ''we do everything'' fleet - and mad scientists like the Hansens.

[drewder]

I never much liked jadzia but I loved ezri