Morgaine wrote:I never said 8472 were being particularly reasonable. But then that's part of my point, it's arrogant and presumptive to just assume you have the right to interfere and get in the middle of things every time and that your mission to get home means you can always just find a way through wherever you want.
Sometimes your presence isn't needed or wanted, and that's something Janeway often has trouble understanding eventhough ither times she worships the Prime Directive above all else.
Yes, that fullly applies in cases of minor races of the week and their conflicts, but not when it comes to the Borg, a galaxy spanning empire, their potential fall to a even greater power and that power seemingly intent on continuing on wiping out life in our galaxy once the Borg are out of the way.
That effects everyone.
Does it though? The Borg were, up until Voyager fucked them up, pretty much the unstoppable force. Yes a force capable of beating them is much stronger but from a practical point of view it doesn't mean much to you. Which ever one wins you're still completely fucked.
The only way this may work out good for the other being involved is if 8472 is actually not a much greater power than the Borg, in that case you can hope that they hit each other so hard that whoever "wins" their power is broken. And from that viewpoint what the Voyager crew did was completely idiotic. The last thing you want in that situation is to give one side a significant advantage.
The stupid Neelix moment, I've got to ask.
I've not seen the episode, and don't get me wrong, I can't stand the little stain either, but doesn't he do something a little more, well, Neelix for this episode's ire? I can see him getting conned and taking Ray Wise onboard, but really, that could happen to anyone, Harry.
As someone who generally dislikes Voyager, I think this is definitely one of its more inventive outings. We've always tended to see the Borg from a sort of cosmic, stellar-political point of view, even when we see their actions on the ground. Assimilating cultures. Some episodes do certainly look at what it's like to be a Borg from a personal perspective (especially with Seven), but this episode gives us something that we'd only seen referenced one before, by Joseph Sisko in Homefront (and only very briefly): what it feels like to know that this inescapable, final end is coming. I would have loved to see an episode from the point of view of Arturis' people trying in vain to fend off the final Borg push to the their homeworld. It probably seems grim and more than a little morbid, but an episode showing the real fear of people sitting on their homes, terrified, probably waiting for the final moment with a gun in hand because they know that the only thing that awaits them is assimilation... that sounds like some compelling stuff.
That said, I do think Ray Wise's delivery once he's been discovered is a bit over the top. He was fine until then, and a little restraint could have made this one a Trek performance for the ages.
Honestly, I flat out reject later episodes and believe that if left alone that Species 8472 would have purged the entire galaxy of all life. They may have backed away after that once Janeway showed they could fight back but I have no doubt they would have exterminated the galaxy's population when they were up against people who couldn't fight back.
I don't buy the "it was all a bluff" business as Kes knows their actual souls effectively.
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:19 am
Honestly, I flat out reject later episodes and believe that if left alone that Species 8472 would have purged the entire galaxy of all life. They may have backed away after that once Janeway showed they could fight back but I have no doubt they would have exterminated the galaxy's population when they were up against people who couldn't fight back.
I don't buy the "it was all a bluff" business as Kes knows their actual souls effectively.
It is a pity that the 8472 wasn't treated as more of a threat past Scorpion. Like a Anti-Life species.
I felt that maybe a ongoing war between 8472 and the Borg would have been a nice season long arc. This time now the Borg being able to fight on even ground. But destroying everything around them. 8472 destroying non Borg planets to prevent the Borg from making more drones sort of thing.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:13 am
It is a pity that the 8472 wasn't treated as more of a threat past Scorpion. Like a Anti-Life species.
I felt that maybe a ongoing war between 8472 and the Borg would have been a nice season long arc. This time now the Borg being able to fight on even ground. But destroying everything around them. 8472 destroying non Borg planets to prevent the Borg from making more drones sort of thing.
ONLINE actually solved the issue of their "Xenomorph" forms costing too much. The shapeshifting (which is from VOY but only as a condition) works well.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:13 am
It is a pity that the 8472 wasn't treated as more of a threat past Scorpion. Like a Anti-Life species.
I felt that maybe a ongoing war between 8472 and the Borg would have been a nice season long arc. This time now the Borg being able to fight on even ground. But destroying everything around them. 8472 destroying non Borg planets to prevent the Borg from making more drones sort of thing.
ONLINE actually solved the issue of their "Xenomorph" forms costing too much. The shapeshifting (which is from VOY but only as a condition) works well.
That makes no sense. Their three legged form is their natural form and in the episode where we saw them in human form took alot.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:08 am
That makes no sense. Their three legged form is their natural form and in the episode where we saw them in human form took alot.
I'm speaking about how to make use of them on camera cheaper. But you can say, "our biological sciences is superior to your own."
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:19 am
Honestly, I flat out reject later episodes and believe that if left alone that Species 8472 would have purged the entire galaxy of all life. They may have backed away after that once Janeway showed they could fight back but I have no doubt they would have exterminated the galaxy's population when they were up against people who couldn't fight back.
I don't buy the "it was all a bluff" business as Kes knows their actual souls effectively.
They made bitches out of Borg cubes back when that was an achievement. They had access to a Death Star beam. They could appear out of thin air. They kill you just by being in proximity. They would have been heading towards an Alpha and Gamma Quadrant ravaged by the Dominion War. There wouldn't have been much left of the galaxy if they had gone full Terminator.
Species 8472 is another symptom of this era of Star Trek's efforts to sabotage all of their most badass enemies.
clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:41 pm
They made bitches out of Borg cubes back when that was an achievement. They had access to a Death Star beam. They could appear out of thin air. They kill you just by being in proximity. They would have been heading towards an Alpha and Gamma Quadrant ravaged by the Dominion War. There wouldn't have been much left of the galaxy if they had gone full Terminator.
Species 8472 is another symptom of this era of Star Trek's efforts to sabotage all of their most badass enemies.
I get the desire to stick with Star Trek and actually like the idea Species 8472 is a lot more intelligent and cultured than they seemed but they didn't need to saw off the entirety of their edge either.
