Lower Decks Season 3

[CharlesPhipps]

It certainly is, but it's a price you paid for your past actions. Mind you, I am not judging you or anything, but the people's past experience with you informed their current actions in that situation. It's basically your past self hurting you specifically, instead of others (as your past self seems to have done).

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that the people turn out to be aggressively ignorant and not bothering to gather the facts before making snap decisions as a group. It's doubly problematic because they are on a ship and have to be kept in such a tight confines. Captain Freeman is doubly responsible because she presumably is getting reports from Ransom who has been getting nothing but praise about her himself.

Why bother giving her a second chance (or third or fourth) if you're going to ignore doing so.

I dispute this, because this show has displayed a consistant incapability of making the characters accountable for their actions and, especially and in particular, failings. Part of this comes from this being a comedy show, but even comedy shows have managed to let their characters develop consistantly and learn from their mistakes. At first glance Lower Decks does occasionally manage that, but this episode shows, that all the little steps are without greater consequence and for what, I do wonder?

It's a bit weird you do so when the entire point of this episode was that Mariner changed dramatically both in her relationship to the ship, its crew, her mother, and herself. This is also not a third season development as the changes to Mariner's character started in "Crisis Point."

Mariner is right back to where she started, except to not being Starfleet anymore.

That seems a bit like, "Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"

She's achieved remarkable growth as a person, though, and stopped caring about impressing people or being an edgy rebel.

Boimler is still a nobody, despite being shown to be one of the most competent people on the ship.

He's an Ensign on a Starfleet vessel. One of the most prestigious positions in the galaxy. He has, however, gone from being a rules abiding suck up to being BOLD BOIMLER as well as having the makings of being a proper author.

Freeman is still a wrathful fury, which explodes at the first opportune moment, despite being in rehab 5 episodes earlier.

Yeah, Freeman has not grown as a person and as a woman in her middle years, I wouldn't expect her too.

The only ones who seem to get some vague story-development seem to be Tendi, who's gradually revealed to be an ex-pirate (though I do not feel that really works with her early naive characterization) and the mystery around Rutherfords implant, which comes from nowhere (and doesn't really have a reason to exist, as Starfleet itself would ask questions about that thing) and probably will lead nowhere.

Ugh, I don't know. This show just does not feel consistent to me and seems to try to chase an impossible audience-expectation, sacrificing stringent development for cheap jokes. There are moments where I laugh, but there are far more moments where the show flat out frustrates me.

It's strange because I think Boimler and Mariner have both changed considerably.

[Madner Kami]

I feel that would be the wrong takeaway or resolution.

[...]

I dispute this, because this show has displayed a consistant incapability of making the characters accountable for their actions and, especially and in particular, failings.

I think perhaps you misread that second point, because I'm agreeing with you there. At least, in the point where I expect the status quo to be restored soon, it will negate everything this episode did well. I mentioned that mostly in the context of how that's not what happens in real life in such a situation, but it does undermine the episode. But we haven't seen it yet, so it's impossible to know for sure what direction they'll take it.

It's a comedy where they want to have their cake and eat it, so I'm not expecting better than we've gotten.

My apologies then, I'm in a wierd mood today, which may mislead me into reading something that wasn't written. I understood "status quo restored" as "Mariner being back on board without any takeaway".

It certainly is, but it's a price you paid for your past actions. Mind you, I am not judging you or anything, but the people's past experience with you informed their current actions in that situation. It's basically your past self hurting you specifically, instead of others (as your past self seems to have done).

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that the people turn out to be aggressively ignorant and not bothering to gather the facts before making snap decisions as a group. It's doubly problematic because they are on a ship and have to be kept in such a tight confines. Captain Freeman is doubly responsible because she presumably is getting reports from Ransom who has been getting nothing but praise about her himself.

Why bother giving her a second chance (or third or fourth) if you're going to ignore doing so.

That part was specifically aimed at Deledrius' experience, not so much at Lower Decks. But putting it into the framework of Lower Decks, I would expect people to suspect her being the "traitor" outright, but this is decidely not a reaction I expect from Starfleet-officers, much less her own mother and especially not from a myriad of characters who weren't exactly a victim of her past actions. I mean, Shax? How often was he actually hurt by Mariner's actions? Or the doctor? It just feels very out of nowhere, undeserved and nonsensical, that the entire crew turns against Mariner, including her girl-friend.

It's a bit weird you do so when the entire point of this episode was that Mariner changed dramatically both in her relationship to the ship, its crew, her mother, and herself. This is also not a third season development as the changes to Mariner's character started in "Crisis Point."

I wouldn't call her changes dramatic. I see the changes the character underwent, but the character to me feels very flip-flopping and this latest episode shows this so blatantly, that it hurts. She gets blamed for something she didn't do and instead of just dealing with it, she throws everything away and runs off with a person that is very much Mariner's equal in all the bad ways, reverting back to where she started. I somehow doubt that this is what Deledrius did in that same situation.

At the same time, the show tends to be crass for comedic value, perfectly on display with Mariner being thrown off the ship and stationed in Bumfucknowhere with Tweedldee and Tweedldumb, so I probably shouldn't read too much into it, but this is just another sign to me, why this show frustrates me so much. It's inconsistent and can't find the proper balance between serious and comedic. It feels like later seasons Simpsons, while it clearly tries to be early seasons Simpsons, for lack of a better word.

That seems a bit like, "Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"

The meaning of this is lost on me.

She's achieved remarkable growth as a person, though, and stopped caring about impressing people or being an edgy rebel.

She has? So this is why she ran off with the edgy rebel, thief and traitor, who is very much a spitting image of Mariner herself. Yeah, that makes total sense... Sorry, I don't buy it. I mean, I'm certain they'll use this as an opportunity to show Mariner how bad her own behaviour is or was, but what does anyone get from seeing that, which we haven't see before already? Sending her on a redemption-arc-rebound from her aborted redemption-arc? Blegh.

He's an Ensign on a Starfleet vessel. One of the most prestigious positions in the galaxy. He has, however, gone from being a rules abiding suck up to being BOLD BOIMLER as well as having the makings of being a proper author.

He was all that when we met him in the first episode already. Let me remind you, that he stood up to Mariner, when he believed she was doing nefarious stuff in the very first episode. His stay on the Titan was before the "BOLD BOIMLER!"-persona, if I recall right and he was both respected, well-liked and rewarded for his actions, until the universe decided to shit on him again and making him the butt-monkey.
Also, he consistently displayed a great deal of competence and understanding of his fellow crew-members, so "rules-abiding suck up" is very misleading, though he does indeed get shown to have these traits. However, remember how he's the only one who can deal with the stresses during "Temporal Eddict"? Everyone just crumbles, but he thrives, somehow. And he is also the one person who convinces Freeman of the necessity of buffer-time for everyone else, despite buffer time being very anathema to him personally. Boimler shows an extreme degree of competency (repeatedly) and understanding of everyone around him over and over again, making him probably the only one on the entire ship who should sit in a command chair. But there we are again, at the show's tonal inconsistency. Boimler certainly needed some tempering, but he recieves dismissal and is constantly the target of most of the degrading jokes of the show.

Yeah, Freeman has not grown as a person and as a woman in her middle years, I wouldn't expect her too.

But she must, if the show ever wants to get somewhere. Otherwise she's the eternal reset-button for Mariner in a show that seems to try to have consistent character-development.

It's strange because I think Boimler and Mariner have both changed considerably.

I just do not see how. "BOLD BOIMLER" is still Boimler trying to be someone he's not for the sake of being accepted, recognized and cheered for, rather than just going his way and being who he is. Well, the universe makes him the center of a joke less often than it used to, so there's that. Mariner? At times, yes, but then she bursts out into a rant a scene later and takes matters into her own hands because she knows better than everyone else. And now she throws everything that stuck regardless away and ran off. I dunno, the show feels just so inconsistent, both trying to keep things in stasis for the sake of a joke and trying to develop things at the same time. It just doesn't know what it wants to be, whether it wants to be a comedic drama or a pure comedy.

I'm not certain I can find the right words to describe how I feel about the overall show, other than the ones above.

[Deledrius]

I dunno, the show feels just so inconsistent, both trying to keep things in stasis for the sake of a joke and trying to develop things at the same time. It just doesn't know what it wants to be, whether it wants to be a comedic drama or a pure comedy.

I'm not certain I can find the right words to describe how I feel about the overall show, other than the ones above.

I'm feeling that a lot this season too. I'm enjoying it a lot more overall, but it definitely feels like it's struggling against those very changes you mention.

For me, it overall seems like it's mostly changing for the better, and I'm hoping it decides which of those it's going to ultimately be so it can work towards achieving its goals instead of continuing to vacillate and undercut itself.

From the interviews with the showrunner and another of the writers that I listened to on The 7th Rule, it sounds like there are some very different opinions on this topic of tone in the writers' room, so it's not surprising that it's showing through a bit in the end product. It's a different kind of show for Trek, so there's more new ground than the usual to cover in that regard (but that hasn't stopped shows like Discovery or Picard from throwing almost all of that out and starting very different anyway -- to very mixed results).

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I liked the episode. I think it was particularly effective because I, as the viewer, assumed that mariner had screwed up, so I got to share in the captain's culpability.
I do think it seems a bit extreme that everyone except our core three was giving her that treatment.
I don't understand why you accuse this show of being afraid to change the status quo. The show makes huge changes to the status quo, like Mariner leaving starfleet, or Boimler leaving the ship. There is genuine character development here and just because Mariner left starfleet that doesn't mean her character is reset. We've seen nothing to indicate that the archeologist has season 1 mariner's host of character flaws, she's just taking a different direction because she feels like her starfleet career has become a dead end.

[hammerofglass]

I actually really enjoyed the finale, but the premise makes zero sense. The drones are good at the construction roles and grunt work that the Cali class often gets stuck with just because their time is less valuable, and they puch way above their weight in combat, but actual second contact missions where you have to deal with people or help repair native tech are way out of their skill set.

[CharlesPhipps]

Some finale thoughts:

1:] I’d argue that Admiral Kennelly, Admiral Pressman, and Admiral Satie have all been exceeded by Admiral Buenamigo. Pressman for example has a lot of people who agree with his belief that the Romulan Treaty and cloaking devices was a mistake (including the DS9 writers). However, Buenamigo straight up was willing to commit MASS MURDER (of Starfleet personnel no less) to get his drone project through.

2:] I don’t think there’s any surprise that Starfleet would be more willing to do automated Star Fleet vessels. Data, The Doctor, and even the EMH Mark II have all demonstrated that AI has gotten a bad rap and that they should possibly be reevaluated. I’d argue the Texas-class and Peanut Hamper may have gone a long way to Starfleet regaining its wariness of AI.

3:] Speaking of Picard tie-ins, if not for the fact that Badgey is all the evil you need, I’d wonder if the Zhat Vash had sabotaged the Texas project. After all, they have had people infiltrating Star Trek for years. I wouldn’t be surprised if a certain future “Vulcan” Admiral was on Buenamigo’s staff.

4:] Starfleet’s disdain for the California-class seems excessive and I’m wondering if there’s another story here because the Admirals seemed pretty eager to scrap an entire line of ships in exchange for the automated support class.

5:] While shipping is not the primary part of reviews, I think Jennifer’s look followed by Mariner walking right past her was something that spoke volumes. It also pretty much cements that their ship is dead and done rather than something they intend to revisit.

6:] I also like the fact that Mariner chooses to come back to Starfleet of her own accord. It's now something we understand that she has made a commitment of her own accord to.

[CharlesPhipps]

I actually really enjoyed the finale, but the premise makes zero sense. The drones are good at the construction roles and grunt work that the Cali class often gets stuck with just because their time is less valuable, and they puch way above their weight in combat, but actual second contact missions where you have to deal with people or help repair native tech are way out of their skill set.

The premise of this episode and "Operation Flyby" seems to be that Starfleet considers Second Contact missions to be a waste of time and actively despises the California class. Which is something backed up by how much Captain Freeman gets shit on and how much the Cali-class gets shade everywhere they go. Which makes no sense itself given it'd be a vital part of the Federation's protocols and workhorse activity but seems a central part of the story.

[Nobody700]

I wanna give Mariner credit. While she fucks up a lot and can be annoying, she is a GOOD character cause she RECOGNIZES her flaws and aims to fix them, and does. She stopped blaming Starfleet and her mom and grew the hell up. Mariner is a character I disliked heavily at first but now I really like her, and it's her growth that shows she's gone a long way. I respect the show made her change, either because that was the goal or they DID listen to critiques. I mostly bet it was the former. So yeah, while Mariner is flawed she isn't a bad character and the season 3 finale proves it.

[Nobody700]

I actually really enjoyed the finale, but the premise makes zero sense. The drones are good at the construction roles and grunt work that the Cali class often gets stuck with just because their time is less valuable, and they puch way above their weight in combat, but actual second contact missions where you have to deal with people or help repair native tech are way out of their skill set.

The premise of this episode and "Operation Flyby" seems to be that Starfleet considers Second Contact missions to be a waste of time and actively despises the California class. Which is something backed up by how much Captain Freeman gets shit on and how much the Cali-class gets shade everywhere they go. Which makes no sense itself given it'd be a vital part of the Federation's protocols and workhorse activity but seems a central part of the story.

Yeah normally I would fire my own logic here... but frankly even I can barely understand the reasoning why second contact is mocked when frankly, second contact to me comes off MORE important than first in a lot of regards. Like... this is literally how you invite people to the Federation. What's the plan if you remove it?! The California class getting mocked may be because it's the weakest ship in the Federation given how a lot of scenes show it really weak compared to even mid tier ships in the Federation, but that comes off more impressive if a crew works well with what they got, over being given a galaxy class and still failing.

[MightyDavidson]

I actually really enjoyed the finale, but the premise makes zero sense. The drones are good at the construction roles and grunt work that the Cali class often gets stuck with just because their time is less valuable, and they puch way above their weight in combat, but actual second contact missions where you have to deal with people or help repair native tech are way out of their skill set.

The premise of this episode and "Operation Flyby" seems to be that Starfleet considers Second Contact missions to be a waste of time and actively despises the California class. Which is something backed up by how much Captain Freeman gets shit on and how much the Cali-class gets shade everywhere they go. Which makes no sense itself given it'd be a vital part of the Federation's protocols and workhorse activity but seems a central part of the story.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that Admiral BuenoAmigo was taking steps to malign the California class ships, as part of his plan to get the Texas class ships implemented.