Lower Decks Season 3

[Riedquat]

They couldn't rebuild because the disruption caused people to stop trusting one another.

That's the idiotic message part of the idiotic writing. "All we need to solve our problems is trust..."

Con artists want people to be trusting. The people capable of defending themselves and others are skeptical; they trust, but verify.

Yeah, sounds rather like naive strawman-based political opinion pushing really.

[CharlesPhipps]

Yeah, sounds rather like naive strawman-based political opinion pushing really.

By contrast, that's a weird argument against, "The Federation's infrastructure collapses due to a breakdown in interstellar relations following an unexpected catastrophe."

I mean, I'm not even sure how anyone can argue this is an unrealistic possibility.

I feel like most fans would be arguing FOR its realism if Discovery was arguing against it.

[McAvoy]

You know they could have easily used 'destroying subspace' since that plot element has been used before and it would have accomplished the same thing.

I mean that would mean that space would forever be barred from being used again and it would be an eternal dark age versus the solution of:

1. Finding out what caused it
2. Finding more dilithium

Well that is simple.

1.) Finding out what caused it.

2.) Using really advanced 32nd technology to fix it.

Like it didn't completely destroy subspace but only created large pockets of damaged or destroyed subspace. Requiring Starfleet ships to travel around them which would take a lot of time. Then using alternative slower FTL drives to travel through those areas of space to reach planets under distress.

Then the Discovery comes along with the spore drive that can travel into those areas of space or through it.

And instead of some kid with some weird powers that destroyed dilithium is just the child of the same person who accidently destroyed subspace. And he has been actively trying to fix it but losing his mind as the station slowly breaks apart just like the real episode. He is a step away from finding a fix but like I said losing his mind from being alone.

Not that hard. Also removes the whole a emotional outburst caused The Burn.

[McAvoy]

Yeah, even if all dilithium crystals everywhere blew up, there are FTL methods in Star Trek that aren't dependent on them - prominent among which are the singularity core drives used Romulan Birds of Prey, which the Romulans used because of lack of sufficient supplies of the substance.

Presumably there are major disadvantages to singularity cores, which is why most people use dilithium, but it's not impossible to do without them.

Some kind of subspace disruption that caused all subspace tech to fail would have made much more sense.

(edit because I can't spell Romulan)

Discovery conviently forgot that. You are telling me that no one figured out how to use slipstream, slingshot, those ancient alien corridors, or whatever else I forgot?

So those use dilithium too? Keep in mind dilithium isn't a fuel but a focusing crystal.

[CharlesPhipps]

Discovery conviently forgot that. You are telling me that no one figured out how to use slipstream, slingshot, those ancient alien corridors, or whatever else I forgot?

So those use dilithium too? Keep in mind dilithium isn't a fuel but a focusing crystal.

A reminder that there's a massive amount of interstellar travel going on in the setting.

Which is what I'm getting at. People are arguing the Burn should have destroyed the ability to go to Warp or that it wasn't believable that the sudden death of everyone using dilithium-based vessels at the time (due to the anti-matter containment that DILITHIUM PROVIDES going off) wouldn't cripple galactic civilization.

In fact, the Star Trek nonsense technology is actually better handled here than in TNG and other places because it establishes that the antimatter going off was what caused the explosion, not the dilithium. The dilithium that wasn't containing anti-matter at the time (i.e. was inert) wasn't destroyed. So it's the sudden destruction of the Federation's source of limitless clean energy and the equivalent of the death of all starships for no reason. Any anti-matter reactors on planets also presumably exploded at the time as well.

And I'm not even sure what the argument is as to what SHOULD have happened in this case? The Federation just rebuilds itself? Everything is fine? They replace all of the starships with non-dilithium vessels? I mean, THEY DID. Booker's starship has a slipstream drive as established in the 2nd episode (even if it's on the fritz).

It's just that it doesn't magically fix the damage and the Federation has collapsed so it's now been replaced by the Emerald Chain and other ugly nasty tyrannies due to the utopian Federation no longer able to provide clean replicated energy to everyone (or people not wanting them). I'm trying really to understand the argument.

What do people object to from the premise?

[McAvoy]

Discovery conviently forgot that. You are telling me that no one figured out how to use slipstream, slingshot, those ancient alien corridors, or whatever else I forgot?

So those use dilithium too? Keep in mind dilithium isn't a fuel but a focusing crystal.

A reminder that there's a massive amount of interstellar travel going on in the setting.

Which is what I'm getting at. People are arguing the Burn should have destroyed the ability to go to Warp or that it wasn't believable that the sudden death of everyone using dilithium-based vessels at the time (due to the anti-matter containment that DILITHIUM PROVIDES going off) wouldn't cripple galactic civilization.

In fact, the Star Trek nonsense technology is actually better handled here than in TNG and other places because it establishes that the antimatter going off was what caused the explosion, not the dilithium. The dilithium that wasn't containing anti-matter at the time (i.e. was inert) wasn't destroyed. So it's the sudden destruction of the Federation's source of limitless clean energy and the equivalent of the death of all starships for no reason. Any anti-matter reactors on planets also presumably exploded at the time as well.

And I'm not even sure what the argument is as to what SHOULD have happened in this case? The Federation just rebuilds itself? Everything is fine? They replace all of the starships with non-dilithium vessels? I mean, THEY DID. Booker's starship has a slipstream drive as established in the 2nd episode (even if it's on the fritz).

It's just that it doesn't magically fix the damage and the Federation has collapsed so it's now been replaced by the Emerald Chain and other ugly nasty tyrannies due to the utopian Federation no longer able to provide clean replicated energy to everyone (or people not wanting them). I'm trying really to understand the argument.

What do people object to from the premise?

Dilithium is a focusing crystal for the interaction of between antimatter and matter. Magnetic containment is what contains antimatter. By that point there is no antimatter. A small point as probably the Dilithium being destroyed means uncontained matter antimatter reaction was happening without being focused.

That's besides the point. It's the very premise of still having Dilithium. 1000 years later and they are still using it and it's in short supply.

So they go into the future and they are basically using the equivilant of reciprocating coal powered engines.

Why? because apparently Star Trek can't be Stat Trek without warp drive using Dilithium. Something I am sure many non-Trek fans are fully aware of and I guess Trek fans are too stupid to figure out there might be something else besides it.

[CharlesPhipps]

Dilithium is a focusing crystal for the interaction of between antimatter and matter. Magnetic containment is what contains antimatter. By that point there is no antimatter. A small point as probably the Dilithium being destroyed means uncontained matter antimatter reaction was happening without being focused.

That's besides the point. It's the very premise of still having Dilithium. 1000 years later and they are still using it and it's in short supply.

So they go into the future and they are basically using the equivilant of reciprocating coal powered engines.

Why? because apparently Star Trek can't be Stat Trek without warp drive using Dilithium. Something I am sure many non-Trek fans are fully aware of and I guess Trek fans are too stupid to figure out there might be something else besides it.

Frankly, I've long been against the huge super-jumps of technology in Star Trek. I feel like they were already ridiculous in giving ENTERPRISE's Star Trek virtually everything that would be available in TNG (let alone TOS) and that Discovery had been repeatedly made more and more advanced than the TOS period up to and including replicators.

So I suppose the idea of dilithium still being in use felt like a nice spit in the face of that and good to have.

[McAvoy]

Dilithium is a focusing crystal for the interaction of between antimatter and matter. Magnetic containment is what contains antimatter. By that point there is no antimatter. A small point as probably the Dilithium being destroyed means uncontained matter antimatter reaction was happening without being focused.

That's besides the point. It's the very premise of still having Dilithium. 1000 years later and they are still using it and it's in short supply.

So they go into the future and they are basically using the equivilant of reciprocating coal powered engines.

Why? because apparently Star Trek can't be Stat Trek without warp drive using Dilithium. Something I am sure many non-Trek fans are fully aware of and I guess Trek fans are too stupid to figure out there might be something else besides it.

Frankly, I've long been against the huge super-jumps of technology in Star Trek. I feel like they were already ridiculous in giving ENTERPRISE's Star Trek virtually everything that would be available in TNG (let alone TOS) and that Discovery had been repeatedly made more and more advanced than the TOS period up to and including replicators.

So I suppose the idea of dilithium still being in use felt like a nice spit in the face of that and good to have.

40 years ago hardly anyone could predict that we would have the total human knowledge literally at our fingertips on a object smaller than a woman's wallet at the time. Look at what movies actually predicted forty years ago. Sure we don't have a Moon base or walking on Mars or have colonies, but on Earth we are outpacing greatly what they predicted.

My whole point is this. Earth has warp drive in the 21sy century. Maybe Cochrane used some unreliable, easy to burn out crystal for the Phoenix. We know in the 23rd century the dilithium crystals can be basically burned out until Scotty figures it out to use nuclear reactors to collect high energy photons.

We got many instances of other species using different FTL. And that is the main thing. How boring is Star Trek is every single species used the same exact FTL system in the first place. Explore strange new worlds but see the same technology base is boring.

Discovery let's be honest, isn't Game of Thrones. It's really not going to attract that kind of people. What you want to is to attract the kind of people that made TNG a smash hit. And dilithium for most is just a word for Star Trek.

As far as I am concerned, might as well go for something different but at least something fans would know. If I made up the name Relidhium that got destroyed. It changes nothing except maybe a ten second sentence explaining it.

But here we are with Discovery. Everyone uses dilithium.

Which is why I suggest subspace damage or destruction. Everything is the same.

Federation is fragmented.

Earth is on its own.

Warp drive is limited.

Response times are limited.

Spore drive would fix all of this.

Instead of some alien kid having an emotional outburst that has some Marvel movie type of explosion, it's a failed experiment.

Space has dead spots where warp drive doesn't work. So you go around it. If you can't you use a different propulsion. Amusing if it's slingshot drive.

Scientist who accidently creates the subspace damaging explosion is pregnant. She is stranded. She teaches her kid. Kid finally figures out how to repair subspace, but with help from Discovery who was the only starship capable of reaching him.

You get the same storyline. You don't get the emotional kid who somehow without real explanation can destroy crystals across the galaxy or quadrant. Discovery is still the hero.

[McAvoy]

Dilithium is a focusing crystal for the interaction of between antimatter and matter. Magnetic containment is what contains antimatter. By that point there is no antimatter. A small point as probably the Dilithium being destroyed means uncontained matter antimatter reaction was happening without being focused.

That's besides the point. It's the very premise of still having Dilithium. 1000 years later and they are still using it and it's in short supply.

So they go into the future and they are basically using the equivilant of reciprocating coal powered engines.

Why? because apparently Star Trek can't be Stat Trek without warp drive using Dilithium. Something I am sure many non-Trek fans are fully aware of and I guess Trek fans are too stupid to figure out there might be something else besides it.

Frankly, I've long been against the huge super-jumps of technology in Star Trek. I feel like they were already ridiculous in giving ENTERPRISE's Star Trek virtually everything that would be available in TNG (let alone TOS) and that Discovery had been repeatedly made more and more advanced than the TOS period up to and including replicators.

So I suppose the idea of dilithium still being in use felt like a nice spit in the face of that and good to have.

Also in way, Star Trek is supposed to reflect that sort of rapid advancing technology that we experience right now.

Stat Trek like many science fiction shows thought we would be at least space faring within our own solar system by now. Sleeper ships for other solar systems.

TNG was envisioned as having a conference room instead of a bridge. The computer doing it all. They ended up going with the tried and true. And then the other shows just followed suit.

Let's be honest here. The reason why dilithium was used was because the writers or producers got lazy. That's all.

So we are stuck with the idea that Starfleet in the 32nd century that uses time travel readily enough, is still stuck with dilithium as a focusing point for their warp drives.

[stryke]

Probably best just not to worry about whatever nonsense they're coming up with on Discovery. We have actual good new Trek shows on, both live action and animated, so continuing to pick at the stupidity that is Discovery isn't needed when it's so much easier to just ignore it.