Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

[Lazerlike42]

See bolded text. Mon Mothma. This isnt the first time I seen someone use this character as an example of a strong woman. But I have to point out that in the movies she hasn't shown any sort of thing that would remotely put her in the same category as Sarah Conner or Ellen Ripley. She is a background character at best even if you take into other media to account.

I agree that what we see of Mon Mothma in the films is extremely limited, though I'd argue that we still see from her enough to satisfy the point I was trying to make. Even in the films it's clear that she's someone that others view with respect and that she is a kind of political leader rather than a warrior or anything of that sort.

Still, I agree there isn't much there. I mentioned her because it was late and I was trying to think of a few fast names that came more quickly to mind. My though when posting was that the films don't show much of her but that what is shown in other media is close enough to make the point.

[Lazerlike42]

Yep. A large percentage of modern ''strong women'' are little more than men with boobs.

When you break down the story of Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor (at least in their second and arguably most beloved films) are perfect examples of the strong FEMININE not the strong masculine because the core of what they do is centred around being a mother. Ripley loses her child and then adopts Newt. Sarah Connor sacrifices everything to protect John. And both of them would literally fight an army if it meant saving their lives.

I am not by any means saying that ''chaining women to motherhood'' is the only way to make a quality ''strong woman'' or that such a stereotype is even desirable, BUT, the point is, this is very much the female equivalent of the ''brave prince saving the damsel'' fantasy that men have. I do, I'm not going to lie.

Millions of women fantasise about being an Ellen Ripley sacrificing themselves for their children just as millions of men fantasise about rescuing a woman from a burning building and rewarded with a kiss.

We also have to get into subjects like ''Fifty Shades of Grey'' or ''Twilight'' which have massively popular female fanbases and yet have female leads that are subservient at best. What does that tell us? Well in my opinion, A) that a lot of women have a ''rescued by a brave prince'' fantasy and B) that millions of women do not see themselves as a Rey or a modern Mulan or an Amazon Galadriel and do not want to be. Those are ultimately male fantasies, not female fantasies. Women are actually quite happy being the lead in romcom. Does that make them any less ''strong'' for wanting to be chased by a man? I would personally say no.

TL;DR, what Hollywood wants us to accept as ''strong women'' isn't actually born out by the media that both men and women find enjoyable.

To be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with having a character in the Amazon Galadriel or the modern Mulan type, the problem is that that's the only way of depicting a woman as strong that they know how to do. The "motherhood" strong woman is another way, with countless variations on that type. I'm not saying all strong women should look this way, either, but some should. We should have depictions of lots of different types of women, but we only get one.

[Madner Kami]

I agree that what we see of Mon Mothma in the films is extremely limited, though I'd argue that we still see from her enough to satisfy the point I was trying to make. Even in the films it's clear that she's someone that others view with respect and that she is a kind of political leader rather than a warrior or anything of that sort.

You have no idea how silly this praise sounds for someone who grew up in the european eastern block and the aftermath of the eastern block collapse, particularly in a country that was suffering from labour shortages since it's inception and thus had everyone mobilized, including women and featured a high rate of single mothers. I recognize that a female leader standing around and blathering already was the cutting edge in relation to western societies of the time, but that's so backwards to me, that I can't help but laugh.
Don't take it personal, it's the disparity of experiences that makes me chuckle. That exact same disparity happens within my country as well, were us Eastern Germans are, to this day, bewildered by so many things being considered "women empowering", which have been the standard to us since the 60s at least. While the Western Germans, to this day, still have this concept of "mother at home and hearth, father at work to fund the family"-thing being an ideal, where it's inconceivable in the East to not have both parents being in the workforce (for funding reasons alone already) unless at least one of them being top level earners. In fact, home-and-hearth-women are generally scoffed at, because they're percieved as trophy wives or welfare queens, depending on the overall wealth-level of the family.

[Lazerlike42]

I agree that what we see of Mon Mothma in the films is extremely limited, though I'd argue that we still see from her enough to satisfy the point I was trying to make. Even in the films it's clear that she's someone that others view with respect and that she is a kind of political leader rather than a warrior or anything of that sort.

You have no idea how silly this praise sounds for someone who grew up in the european eastern block and the aftermath of the eastern block collapse, particularly in a country that was suffering from labour shortages since it's inception and thus had everyone mobilized, including women and featured a high rate of single mothers. I recognize that a female leader standing around and blathering already was the cutting edge in relation to western societies of the time, but that's so backwards to me, that I can't help but laugh.
Don't take it personal, it's the disparity of experiences that makes me chuckle. That exact same disparity happens within my country as well, were us Eastern Germans are, to this day, bewildered by so many things being considered "women empowering", which have been the standard to us since the 60s at least. While the Western Germans, to this day, still have this concept of "mother at home and hearth, father at work to fund the family"-thing being an ideal, where it's inconceivable in the East to not have both parents being in the workforce (for funding reasons alone already) unless at least one of them being top level earners. In fact, home-and-hearth-women are generally scoffed at, because they're percieved as trophy wives or welfare queens, depending on the overall wealth-level of the family.

I didn't say there was anything extraordinary or groundbreaking about having a woman in Mon Mothma's position. Far from it. Like you, I would consider this normal. In fact, this being normal was part of my point. My point was simply that Mon Mothma was a female character of this perfectly normal archetype back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s but that today's filmmakers don't seem to think that this kind of character is a good representation of a woman anymore and that only warrior types represent strength in a female.

[Madner Kami]

My apologies for taking the wrong takeaway from your post. You are correct, I feel.

I'd like to add "The Expanse" as a series which features a multitude of female characters with very varying characterizarions, non being of the obnoxious type. Draper, the military-woman and Drummer the hard-ass pirate. Naomi, the Ripley. Avasarala the complex and hard-boiled politician. And so on.

[McAvoy]

My apologies for taking the wrong takeaway from your post. You are correct, I feel.

I'd like to add "The Expanse" as a series which features a multitude of female characters with very varying characterizarions, non being of the obnoxious type. Draper, the military-woman and Drummer the hard-ass pirate. Naomi, the Ripley. Avasarala the complex and hard-boiled politician. And so on.

Drummer at first annoyed me but she eventually grew on me. To the point I was actually attracted to her, not because of how she looks but to her character. She is bad ass.

Though she could chill with the black paint she slathers over her eyes. Not really sure about that.

[Riedquat]

Personally speaking I don't regard The Expanse as a great example simply because I found just about all the characters rather unlikeable, and ended up giving up on it.

[Madner Kami]

Could you elaborate?

[clearspira]

Speaking of our conversation of strong women here, I found this. I will freely admit that its unfair but it also made me LOL. (Its also more evidence that you'll ever need that men do in fact like strong women).

[hammerofglass]

Well you are the exact audience for that kind of thing.