The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

[GandALF]

As for blowing up a penal colony, for a moment let’s have a hypothetical scenario. Say tomorrow Trump decides to adopt the Tarkin Doctrine as his official domestic policy. Which do you think would elicit more terror in the population of the US; blowing up LA, or blowing up a prison? Both acts would horrify people, but LA would be more horrifying and more likely to terrify everyone.

Well that would be like blowing up Alderaan because Los Angeles is the second largest city in the US it would cripple his economy which which would be a particularly bad move if you're actively fighting a civil war. Gunray might have the same affliction as Tarkin, but doesn't have as much power to begin with, so he has to start a bit smaller.

It's not unrealistic for power mad people to do impractically brash things, Hitler opened the second front with the Soviet Union and shortly after declared war on the US because ya gotta help an ally right? It would be unrealistic if Gunray and Tarkin did these things and were ultimately successful, but they aren't.

[Morgaine]

As for blowing up a penal colony, for a moment let’s have a hypothetical scenario. Say tomorrow Trump decides to adopt the Tarkin Doctrine as his official domestic policy. Which do you think would elicit more terror in the population of the US; blowing up LA, or blowing up a prison? Both acts would horrify people, but LA would be more horrifying and more likely to terrify everyone.

Well that would be like blowing up Alderaan because Los Angeles is the second largest city in the US it would cripple his economy which which would be a particularly bad move if you're actively fighting a civil war. Gunray might have the same affliction as Tarkin, but doesn't have as much power to begin with, so he has to start a bit smaller.

It's not unrealistic for power mad people to do impractically brash things, Hitler opened the second front with the Soviet Union and shortly after declared war on the US because ya gotta help an ally right? It would be unrealistic if Gunray and Tarkin did these things and were ultimately successful, but they aren't.

I don't think you're quite getting the point of the analogy.
Alderaan is clearly not the economic equivalent of LA and at no point is any big deal made of of Alderaan's size or importance other than it's suitable enough to demonstrate to the galaxy that no one is safe from this weapon.
Perhaps a better real life equivalent would be Trump blowing up, say, Seattle. Very significant, but not crippling to his own nation.

Hitler declared war on the Soviets because he thought he could blitz to Moscow and beat the heart out of their resistance, and thought that if he didn't, Stalin would attack him. He declared war on the U.S. because, yes, he was allied with Japan.
We know his reasons however foolish they may have been. What we're all saying is not that Gunray has bad reasons, it's that he has no reasons. Nothing he does appears to benefit himself or the Trade Federation at all.

[bronnt]

I think you have to give some credit to Lucas for coming up with a more sophisticated story on the political side of it. The OT deals with political stuff only a very simple level, and the politics of the ST just looks incoherent to me so far. The problem is that the format (big budget space opera) isn't conducive to complex political drama and intrigue. It isn't fleshed out enough to make total sense, and people certainly didn't seem to be clamoring for more scenes in the Senate.

I'd give him credit if that's what he actually did. This isn't more complicated in terms of politics because there are no politics. There's no debate, there's no discussion, there's no exploration of ideas. It's just as unambiguous as the OT is in that regard: The Trade Federation are the Bad Guys, Naboo and Amidala are the Good Guys. The problem is that it does nothing to demonstrate that like the OT does.

The thing that hits me hardest about the Trade Federation's motive is that it's so easy to just explain in the opening. All it needs to say is, "Naboo and a bunch of other planets have done something intolerable to the Trade Federation, so the Trade Federation attacked. Congress does nothing but debate this."
The implication being, the Trade Federation is now a power unto itself and can act with impunity, because the Republic can't or won't do anything.

Don't pretend it's as simple as writing a new text crawl. Who is Naboo? Who is the Trade Federation?

We have no idea who these players are or how the Republic functions, so how can I get invested in this, even if one side is doing violence? If you're dropped into a situation without context, you won't automatically care about the events. That's why almost the VERY first thing to happen in Star Wars is a piece of dark comedy, as the droids are completely oblivious to the death happening as they wander through a firefight. Since we have no context to care about anything happening in that fight, the audience's lack of investment is played for laughs. That's despite the fact that it's clear which side is which and the text crawl explicitly telling us the Empire is evil.

There's no reason given for me to care about Naboo being conquered. If you have a particularly well written main character who is from Naboo, then maybe I'll start to sympathize with them, and I'll recognize and identify with their struggle to save their home. If you can show me scenes of people suffering under the oppressive heel of the occupying droids, I can react with horror. But the main face we're given for that villain are those battle droids who are written comically to the point that it's hard to see them as threatening. We halt any attempt at political drama to spend half the movie in the Tatooine subplot that does nothing to further the main story. The only reason Tatooine is relevant to the main plot is that the characters have to get off of Tatooine-you can do that in 5 minutes if you want to focus on your main story, or you can spend 50 minute and have a silly podrace and introduce a ton of colorful and irrelevant characters.

[GandALF]

I don't think you're quite getting the point of the analogy.
Alderaan is clearly not the economic equivalent of LA and at no point is any big deal made of of Alderaan's size or importance other than it's suitable enough to demonstrate to the galaxy that no one is safe from this weapon.
Perhaps a better real life equivalent would be Trump blowing up, say, Seattle. Very significant, but not crippling to his own nation.

Hitler declared war on the Soviets because he thought he could blitz to Moscow and beat the heart out of their resistance, and thought that if he didn't, Stalin would attack him. He declared war on the U.S. because, yes, he was allied with Japan.
We know his reasons however foolish they may have been. What we're all saying is not that Gunray has bad reasons, it's that he has no reasons. Nothing he does appears to benefit himself or the Trade Federation at all.

He's greedy, he wants power, just like every other villain in Star Wars. Palpatine has used this to manipulate Gunray into doing something foolish in order give him an opening.

Blowing up Seattle when a civil war has just started and you need every resource available, is not going to practically benefit Trump or his government.

With the exception of it's royal family, Alderaan is a pacifist, Imperial world. Its like shooting your own dog, it'll cause some fear but its ultimately to the Empire's detriment. Blowing up Mon Cala which has its ships and military personal in the Rebel fleet would make more sense. The complaint a few pages ago was that the invasion Naboo was "evil for the sake of evil", well blowing up Alderaan is basically that.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I think you have to give some credit to Lucas for coming up with a more sophisticated story on the political side of it. The OT deals with political stuff only a very simple level, and the politics of the ST just looks incoherent to me so far. The problem is that the format (big budget space opera) isn't conducive to complex political drama and intrigue. It isn't fleshed out enough to make total sense, and people certainly didn't seem to be clamoring for more scenes in the Senate.

I'd give him credit if that's what he actually did. This isn't more complicated in terms of politics because there are no politics. There's no debate, there's no discussion, there's no exploration of ideas. It's just as unambiguous as the OT is in that regard: The Trade Federation are the Bad Guys, Naboo and Amidala are the Good Guys. The problem is that it does nothing to demonstrate that like the OT does.

Except that Padme facilitates Palpatine's rise to power as a quick way to solve Naboo's problems. The Republic and Jedi Council are the good guys, but they've become weak and ineffectual. The Trade Federation functions as the bad guys, but it isn't necessary to interpret them as irredeemably evil. The questions of what makes good government and what leads to corruption are implicit but they're there. There's still the clear dichotomy between good and evil and the light side vs. the dark side, but the politics of it is complicated compared to the OT. I'm not saying its House of Cards or anything, but an effort was made.

[Karha of Honor]

I think you have to give some credit to Lucas for coming up with a more sophisticated story on the political side of it. The OT deals with political stuff only a very simple level, and the politics of the ST just looks incoherent to me so far. The problem is that the format (big budget space opera) isn't conducive to complex political drama and intrigue. It isn't fleshed out enough to make total sense, and people certainly didn't seem to be clamoring for more scenes in the Senate.

I'd give him credit if that's what he actually did. This isn't more complicated in terms of politics because there are no politics. There's no debate, there's no discussion, there's no exploration of ideas. It's just as unambiguous as the OT is in that regard: The Trade Federation are the Bad Guys, Naboo and Amidala are the Good Guys. The problem is that it does nothing to demonstrate that like the OT does.

Except that Padme facilitates Palpatine's rise to power as a quick way to solve Naboo's problems. The Republic and Jedi Council are the good guys, but they've become weak and ineffectual. The Trade Federation functions as the bad guys, but it isn't necessary to interpret them as irredeemably evil. The questions of what makes good government and what leads to corruption are implicit but they're there. There's still the clear dichotomy between good and evil and the light side vs. the dark side, but the politics of it is complicated compared to the OT. I'm not saying its House of Cards or anything, but an effort was made.

The questions of what makes good government and what leads to corruption are implicit but they're there.

Even the EU failed to explain that one.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Destroying Alderan IS effective, because suddenly every other planet will get REALLY good at contributing taxes, drafted soldiers, raw materials, etc. in a timely and adequate manner. It's a tactic as old as Imperial China. Utterly obliterate ONE of your subject communities as a demonstration of power and the others will hasten to tow the line so they don't become a demonstration themselves.

[Karha of Honor]

Destroying Alderan IS effective, because suddenly every other planet will get REALLY good at contributing taxes, drafted soldiers, raw materials, etc. in a timely and adequate manner. It's a tactic as old as Imperial China. Utterly obliterate ONE of your subject communities as a demonstration of power and the others will hasten to tow the line so they don't become a demonstration themselves.

Which dynasties pefected it? I really varied how much control they had over China...

[KekistanisUnite]

Obi-Wan at the time of The Phantom Menace is 25 years old which means in ANH (32 years later) he's 57. In fact, something very strange is that Qui-Gon at the time of TPM is confirmed to be 60 years old born 92 BBY. Played by 45-year old during film's shooting Liam Neeson. In fact, Palpatine is 8 years younger than Qui-Gon born 84 BBY. Though the new canon actually does a great job explaining Obi-Wan's advanced age. He spent 19 years on a desert planet with twin suns which is gonna make it scorching hot. In addition, nights get pretty cold. Also consider the brutal events that happened all through his life. His master Qui-Gon and Satine dying in front of his eyes helpless to do anything. And his apprentice and friend falling to a fate far worse than death. Throw in a wide destructive galactic war, the Jedi being betrayed, being mostly wiped and having to go into hiding. Probably has PTSD so it all makes why he looks older than what he's supposed to be. As for Qui-Gon being older in TPM than Obi-Wan in ANH while looking a decade younger, I think it can be easily assumed that pre-Clone Wars life was pretty easy and more laid back. There's a novel called From a Certain Point of View which is a collection of 40 short stories (in celebration of 40 years since ANH's release) and one of them is about Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon chatting during the little of time when Luke goes off and finds his aunt and uncle murdered. It's a great little story and explains a whole lot about the mythology of Force Ghosts.

[bronnt]

Except that Padme facilitates Palpatine's rise to power as a quick way to solve Naboo's problems. The Republic and Jedi Council are the good guys, but they've become weak and ineffectual. The Trade Federation functions as the bad guys, but it isn't necessary to interpret them as irredeemably evil. The questions of what makes good government and what leads to corruption are implicit but they're there.

I'm just not seeing the political thriller elements here. There's a minor subplot where you can see Palpatine pulling the strings, but the story isn't about that at all. If you want that to be a bigger focus, he needs to actually play politics, which means that we might need to see what the interests of the Trade Federation are and how he's manipulating them. We might need to know a little bit more about the Galactic Senate than that they're willing to change leadership based solely on a sympathy vote. We're told there's other names considered for Supreme Chancellor but they have zero lines and don't, to my knowledge, appear on screen in the film. It's too bare-bones to actually give us a political plot.

And there's nothing to give the Numodians any characterization or depth. They speak in silly accents (reminiscent of people who learned Japanese as a first language), they decide to murder Jedi without the audience having any context at the beginning of the film, and then they invade a place and start rounding up people to put them in concentration camps. They're cartoonishly villainous; they just needed to tie up Padme and leave her on the train tracks to become Snidely Whiplash.