Discussing Luke's Relationship with Mara Jade and Kylo Ren aka Why I Still Find Luke's Moment of Weakness Stupid

[Winter]

Easily the most divisive part of The Last Jedi was the handling of Luke Skywalker's character with many (including Mark Hamill himself) feeling that this wasn't Luke Skywalker while others (most notably Rian Johnson) feels that Luke was in character and that his actions in the film fit with his arc from the Original Trilogy. I myself am in the former group because I feel that Luke is completely out of character and also find that his arc in TLJ is just a rehash of his arc from Return of the Jedi with very little added other then Luke being more of a cynic.

However, for me the worst moment of the Entire Skywalker Saga is the bit where Luke attempts to murder his nephew. And yes it was attempted murder not just him thinking it because as Soon as Ben woke up Luke tried to kill him BEFORE he reached for his lightsaber. He didn't try to defend himself, he tried to kill someone who had only gone for his weapon when he saw someone holding a weapon at him and defended himself.

I know many feel that Luke's reaction could be understood but I honestly don't agree with any of it and my best counterargument exists with the Original Sequel Trilogy, that's right the old and reliable Thrawn Trilogy. In that Trilogy Luke meets up with Mara Jade who, before he ever meets her directly, has a vision of her preparing to kill him then later senses her nearby and senses her HATRED for him which is so strong that Luke is physically affected by it and when he FINALLY meets her in person the first thing she does is tell him that she can't decided to kill him herself or to hand him over to the Imperial Remnant (who have their own sinister plans for him AND his sister and unborn niece and nephew).

And Luke, who is confronted with someone who DEFIANTLY Wants him dead and is already on the Dark Side of the Force, is nothing but kinda and polite to her, saves her life several times while asking for NOTHING in return and does everything in his power to befriend her. Luke soon becomes one of the few people Mara can rely on BECAUSE he does everything he can to help her, EVEN WHEN KNOWING THAT SHE WANTS HIM DEAD!!!

So, let's compare, family member who he helped raised is falling to the Dark Side vs. Total Stranger who plans to murder him and ONLY Doesn't Do So because she was ordered to. One he tries to straight up murder and then RUNS Away so no one knows that this whole mess is his fault while the other one he does everything in his power to help and befriend while sticking with the New Republic cause he can't bring himself to abandon them no matter how hard things get.

Which sounds more like the character we saw at the end of the Original Trilogy?

[hammerofglass]

Contemplating murder is a perfectly natural reaction to spending an extended length of time around a teenager.

Jokes aside, I think you've spent more time thinking about this than anyone involved in writing the sequel trilogy. They're bad movies and didn't think anything through, period.

[Frustration]

TV Tropes has a concept they call the "being handed the Idiot Ball", in which a character suddenly acts stupidly in a way that forwards the plot. There are lots of stories in which foolish decisions play a part in the plot, but in good writing either they are establishing facts (like in King Lear) or they follow naturally from events and characterization.

When a character makes a dumb decision in a way that's out of character, but allows for easy drama, it's because it's a convenience on the part of lazy writers and directors.

Luke drawing a lightsaber on Kylo is such a moment. He had far too many struggles with his own darker impulses to panic over someone else going through the same thing - but responding with the threat of violence gives Kylo a reason to reject the Jedi, so that's what happens.

[clearspira]

One of the many problems with TLJ is that the Finn/Rose subplot and the Admiral Purple Hair subplot is POINTLESS. The former amounts to nothing because the code breaker betrays them and this relationship is dropped by the next film, and the latter is pointless because everyone apologises by the end and is forgotten about.

Cut them and use that time to focus on Luke's characterization and Rey's training. There. I fixed Luke Skywalker and the Mary Sue in one swoop.

You may not still agree with what they did to him, but at least if we had more than one ten second flashback we could actually see the A to B to C that led to it.

[CharlesPhipps]

My take?

The Force was actually telling Luke to kill Kylo Ren. Which Luke absolutely could not believe and was horrified by.

Because the Force knew Kylo Ren would murder billions.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Luke drawing his light saber is an influence of the dark side. It’s supposed to be out of character, or at least out of the pre-Jedi/dark version Luke in the first two movies.

He never does anything overtly dark in Jedi except for choking the guard, while he conversely never actually attacks Ben.

[Winter]

My take?

The Force was actually telling Luke to kill Kylo Ren. Which Luke absolutely could not believe and was horrified by.

Because the Force knew Kylo Ren would murder billions.

Luke drawing his light saber is an influence of the dark side. It’s supposed to be out of character, or at least out of the pre-Jedi/dark version Luke in the first two movies.

One problems with this and that problem being-


youtu.be/Juup8a1Pw-8

To look at the films, and only the films, when Anakin and Luke have visions of those they love being in danger and going to help them that's not because the Force told them to go. When Anakin attacked Mace in Revenge of the Sith and Luke attacked Vader in Return of the Jedi it was out of anger and them giving into the Dark Side BUT it was in a moment of anger brought on due to the stress they were under at the time.

Neither case is the Force telling them to do something but them making bad choices in the heat of the moment that ANY might make in similar situations. When they went to save their loved ones it was because they couldn't leave those they loved in danger, even when others are telling them not to go and again, in the later they are under SEVERE Stress and act on impulse which is a character flaw they have, one they both work to over come later.

And going by what TLJ tells us Luke activating his lightsaber and attempting to kill Ben in his sleep was his own choice "In a moment of Weakness I considered it". He doesn't say "The Force was telling me to kill him" he says "I made a mistake in giving in to my worst nature".

Johnson's argument for this choice was him saying "Luke is in Character" meaning the action Luke takes here is of Luke's own choice, not something being force upon him by the Force. This is his own mistake and failure, that's the whole point of the film, that we make mistakes and to help those not repeat our mistakes.

The thing of it is this argument Johnson presents HAS to ignore what came before. Luke giving into the Dark Side like this only works if he learned nothing from the Original Trilogy while TTT's Luke DOESN'T do this because he learned from his failures and follows what he feels is the true beliefs of the Jedi.

That's why I mention Mara because not only is Luke face to face with someone who wants him dead he is often in VERY dangerous situations, many of which he CAN'T call upon to the Force to help him meaning he is, in a sense, blind and deaf. And yet Luke remains calm because he learned the hard way that giving into fear and anger will not help him.

TLJ Luke gives into fear for most of the film and based on what it says, for nearly 15 years and hid so no one would know of his mistake. Which makes him blaming the Jedi all the more jarring because it wasn't the fault of the Jedi that he gave into his moment of weakness it was because he decided that murder was the only solution to his problem.

[Frustration]

It's just bad writing.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well the dark side of the force isn’t only about anger. You gave two instances of the dark side manipulating anger and compared it to a situation that doesn’t involve it.

There’s explicit narration at the end of the movie where palpatine makes it very clear that anger is what’s being tapped into. Luke did learn from that. At the start of the movie however luke is domineering the situation with the guards, and it’s neither explicit nor out of anger…

There is however evidence artistically and through word of mouth that he is listening to the dark side of the force. When choking the guards.

[Frustration]

Fear for his friend and anger at being frustrated.

The big problem is that Lucas insisted on keeping a good/evil dichotomy, when the Taoist and Buddhist ideas he was drawing on are big on balance and the "middle way".