Discussing Luke's Relationship with Mara Jade and Kylo Ren aka Why I Still Find Luke's Moment of Weakness Stupid

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Same difference with anakin. He thought Padame was betraying him.

Anakin had already fallen to the Dark Side and his first response to ANYTHING that gets out of hand was always violence. Luke was a Jedi who only resorted to violence when there was no alternative. We see this as far back as A New Hope, what does Luke do when he learns that his aunt and uncle are dead and that his father was a Jedi who was murdered by Vader?

"I want to come with you to Alderaan. There's nothing for me here now. I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my Father."

He's not doing this to seek revenge he's doing it because he wants to become a Jedi. Also in ANH when he learns that Leia is on the Death Star he goes to save her despite the risks because he feels he has to do something to help. That's what bugs me, Luke has always sought to do the right thing and him trying to murder his own nephew in his sleep is out of character.

And again, the whole point of this thread is to show how Zahn understood that and BUILT on it while Johnson undid all that development while saying it's in character for Luke to act this way.

Okay, so Luke taught and called himself a Jedi; which is problematic considering it is Pretty much established that he was using the dark side of the force by the time return of the Jedi comes around. And he was specifically not a Jedi in the previous two movies. Yoda validates his certification… and he also burns down the Jedi temple. Make of that what you will despite Johnson’s directive.

What happens in the book isn’t exactly precedence for who Luke is as a person, and as far as the first two movies are concerned, he doesn’t use the dark side of the force, and is thus not influenced by it.

When we see Luke fight Vader in return of the Jedi, he is not using violence out of anger, it’s arguable that he’s doing it out of fear, which is how he is acting with Ben solo.

[Winter]

What happens in the book isn’t exactly precedence for who Luke is as a person,

The Thrawn Trilogy WAS considered canon for a long time and it is no less valid then the films. Zahn looked at Luke's arc from Hope to Jedi and said "Luke would try to be the best Jedi he could be and would want to make peace with someone who wanted him dead or who sought to control him." Johnson looked at the same arc and said "Luke would consider killing his own family member even though he already went through this with Vader and then run and hide so no one would know he was at fault."

To look at another story, in Assassin's Creed 3: The Tyranny of King Washington the main protagonist Ratonhnhaké:ton is poisoned by a Magic Willow Tree that slowly corrupts him and has him slowly come around to the idea that maybe he should just take the power for himself. This happens over the course of several weeks and it doesn't change him all at once and you can see how the Red Willow Tree is changing him for the worse but you understand WHY he uses it as it's the only means to confront Washington and his magic powers.

And at the end when Ratonhnhaké:ton is tempted to take Washington's throne you can see what lead to this moment and why he would consider doing something that would normally be out of character for him.

We don't get that with Luke, we learn nothing about what lead to this moment and what's worse, as shown in The Book of Boba Fett, the series is trying to justify this choice but to do so it has to ignore the lessons he learned in the Original Trilogy. The most glaring of this being Luke telling Grogu that attachments is a weakness EVEN THOUGH IT WAS HIS ATTACHMENT TO HIS FATHER THAT SAVED THEM BOTH FROM THE DARK SIDE AND SAVED THE REBELLION!!!

Again, this doesn't happen in TTT, sure it was written before the Prequel Trilogy was released and introduced the ideas of attachment leading to the Dark Side but you can see that way of thinking with both Obi-Wan and Yoda who both try to convince him to not go and save his friends AND to give up on Vader. Luke chooses to hold onto his love for his family and that AGAIN helps save the day and he forms an attachment to Mara who is saved THROUGH their growing friendship and eventually romantic love.

I prefer Zahn's take on Luke because it's a continuation of Luke's arc while Johnson's DEPENDS on Luke being out of character for this to work WHILE Johnson claimed it was completely in character for Luke. NOT HELPING is this is the fact that Luke's Arc in TLJ is just a retread of his arc in ROTJ. This isn't new territory it's something that was already done in the films only now with less justification because Luke had a REASON to consider Killing Vader, to give into his anger (and yes he IS using Anger in the final part of his duel) AND was being pressured into it by both Vader and Palpatine. There is no given reason why Luke does what he does other then "I saw Darkness in him". ASSHOLE VADER MURDERED MOST OF THE JEDI AND IN ANOTHER UNIVERSE YOU MARRIED A WOMAN WHO WANTED YOU DEAD!!!

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

If your assertion is that the novels have better character development with regards to narrative and arc, then there is no issue there. The issue is that that doesn’t say anything about the validity of what Luke is doing in the last Jedi, as far as someone writing a new story with an alternate take on what happens after the original films. At the time of the story’s conception, there’s not just one single possible outcome for what happens to Luke after the return of the Jedi.

[hammerofglass]

I mean given how much the writers of all three movies clearly adore Dark Empire it's not really surprising they would prefer that characterization of Luke over Zahn's.

[Winter]

I mean given how much the writers of all three movies clearly adore Dark Empire it's not really surprising they would prefer that characterization of Luke over Zahn's.

Which is actually kinda funny when you think about as I think Kennedy used DE as a main example as to why they were rebooting the series as the ideas of DE were rather dumb (pointing to Palpatine's resurrection as a major criticism) and well... they ended up doing the same thing.

It's also kinda funny as TDST is kinda the new DE Trilogy in terms of reception. At first it's praised as a great story one that is the TRUE Sequel Trilogy, then people start to notice the flaws and the rather lackluster ending makes many feel that it ruined an otherwise good story. Then people start to notice the other flaws and it's not to long that the story as a whole is ripped apart and everyone wonders what was so good about it to begin with.

Today TDET is viewed a slightly more positive light but nowhere nearly as positively as they did when it first came out. Most just view it as an average story with some good elements but nothing that really makes it stand out aside from the things that most feel haven't aged well (Luke seeming to fall to the Dark Side and the Return of Palpatine).

Not to say that it doesn't have it's fans but they seem to be in the minority and most that do seem to love seem to do so more for the atmosphere then the story and, in all fairness, Dark Empire does have some great atmosphere. And I think that's the main draw of the story.

[hammerofglass]

Dark Empire also had that weird status for a long time where it was kinda but not really it's own continuity because a lot of the other authors working the EU at the time (especially Zahn) thought it was stupid and refused to acknowledge it.

[CmdrKing]

My memory is that even Stackpole, who was working on other comics at the time and did a lot of stuff in the immediate aftermath, and was kinda THE guy who tried to make all the jagged edges of the old EU fit together? Basically went “yeah that happened, we won’t dwell on it, it’s dumb” to all of Dark Empire

[CharlesPhipps]

Dark Empire was also Lucas' favorite of the stories.

[Frustration]

Lucas has no taste. The good stuff in his work was mostly the result of other people's input.

[Winter]

Lucas has no taste. The good stuff in his work was mostly the result of other people's input.

Not true, the Vader plot twist, Lando, Han and Leia getting together, the Nature of the Force and Yoda ALL Lucas' ideas. Others came in and helped refine it but they were Lucas' original ideas. Yes he likes DE but at the time he said that DE was THE Big Star Wars Story as it even briefly eclipsed TTT. I don't know if he's changed his mind or not but so what if he had. Everyone has a story they like or love that is NOT popular with the majority.

I think The Tyranny of King Washington is THE Best DLC/Expansion Pack ever made and that no DLC has come close to matching it. But most don't even know it exists. I also happen to, as I've mentioned before, to like the Prequel Trilogy despite their flaws. And I know you have films, games or shows that you think are great but are often overlooked or seen as bad by the majority because EVERYONE has one.

But that's besides the point, Lucas has had great ideas and many of the things we love in the Original Trilogy and the Clone Wars originated from him. Others helped to make them great but Lucas is the one who came up with them.