Catra vs. Kylo Ren: Death Battle

[McAvoy]

1: Kylo can take on a Kaiju but has trouble with the non Force Powered Janitor and Red Shirts.

The Stormtroopers are supposedly ruthless and precise, but can't shoot for shit.

Yeah, Kylo is one of those characters where most of his more awesome moments come from Supplementary Material which is more about people trying to fix him but the fact remains that in the end Kylo, just like the Storm Troopers, is likely ever only be seen as a joke of a villain.

Yep. This all the way.

I get it. He was always going to be compared to Vader. And he was going to lose. They just did a piss poor job making him into some credible in the movies.

I think it would have been better logically at least that when he fought Rey the first time that he had Sith eyes. Not full on, but perhaps you can definitely see it almost flickering. That maybe somehow you show Kylo was fighting her injured. But have him dominate the fight. Don't have her win at all. Have her on the back foot the entire time and have her escape due to the planet breaking apart.

[CharlesPhipps]

There's two Kylo Ren's.

The Kylo Ren in The Force Awakens is one the fans really responded to.

Fans: "Oh wow, great idea! Rather than trying to redo Darth Vader, you made a school shooting Neo-Fascist incel who is trying too hard to be edgy and badass! He's still awful and evil but he's pathetic rather than cool! A perfect villain for the 21st century! A true irredeemable piece of shit that we can all hate."

Disney: "Uh, no, we wanted him to be cool and awesome and get the girl."

[McAvoy]

There's two Kylo Ren's.

The Kylo Ren in The Force Awakens is one the fans really responded to.

Fans: "Oh wow, great idea! Rather than trying to redo Darth Vader, you made a school shooting Neo-Fascist incel who is trying too hard to be edgy and badass! He's still awful and evil but he's pathetic rather than cool! A perfect villain for the 21st century! A true irredeemable piece of shit that we can all hate."

Disney: "Uh, no, we wanted him to be cool and awesome and get the girl."

This is why you don't bring in Adam Driver for his regular appearance. I do like the actor but his appearance is just off.

Now granted, Adam Driver could have done far more than what he was given in the trilogy. Incoherent trilogy in name only.

[Winter]

There's two Kylo Ren's.

The Kylo Ren in The Force Awakens is one the fans really responded to.

Fans: "Oh wow, great idea! Rather than trying to redo Darth Vader, you made a school shooting Neo-Fascist incel who is trying too hard to be edgy and badass! He's still awful and evil but he's pathetic rather than cool! A perfect villain for the 21st century! A true irredeemable piece of shit that we can all hate."

Disney: "Uh, no, we wanted him to be cool and awesome and get the girl."

Part of the Problem with Kylo is that the films present an idea of how they want Kylo to be presented yet what he actually is doesn't mesh with that version.

I mentioned this before but look how the films set him up, people talk about him a lot, often with fear in their voices and the way they act when they meet him also presents that this is someone to be afraid of. Even when Poe makes fun of him you get the sense that it's out of fear for the monster standing before him. And for the first few minutes TFA tries to maintain this idea... then he throws a tantrum, and it's all downhill from there.

Characters continue to act like he's this horrifying monster AND starts to present the idea that he may be a misguided soul who was turned to evil. But the Kylo we keep getting remains a loser who we can't take seriously with him throwing more tantrums and becoming less intimidating as the story goes on. At the end the last we see of him he's on the ground bleeding showing how far he has fallen. This completely shatters the idea that we're suppose to be in anyway intimated by him. He's not a threat, he's someone for Rey to beat up and whom the viewer can't sympathize with.

And then came TLJ and boy this film didn't help. It reaffirmed the idea that Kylo was truly pathetic as he couldn't even beat a bunch of red shirts and STILL lost to Rey. And he loses his first battle as leader of the First Order. This showed in full that Kylo was not a threat, that he would never BE A Threat. That he was just a Big Bad Wannabe with no skill and could never hope to live up to Vader.

To look at this thread so far, of everyone who has weighed in on who would win in a Death Battle Between the Grandson of Darth Vader and an Angry Gay Disaster Cat-Girl, most of those chiming in have sided with latter. And I should note that in terms of straight up fights, Catra is usually on the losing end. She only ever fought Adora to a few standstills but has never outright defeated her in a straight up fight, she kept Glimmer on her toes but lost in the end. With Hordak has was getting her ass handed to her and had to wait for a opening to strike and with the Crystal Guardian she did lose (though only because he either played dead or was knocked out but still she lost).

But Catra WAS a competent and successful villain. She's the main reason the Horde was winning, it was her skills that kept the Rebellion in the edge and she only lost when the heroes basically brought in a nuke. The fact that she HAS won a few fights and made the heroes fight for every victory AND helped turn the tide when she finally sided with the Rebellion solidifies Catra as a badass.

Yes, she's a cat-girl but she's a complex, multilayered character who was shown to be a threat yet still someone we want to see redeemed because we see the good that is there.

Catra would win, because has has won in the show she was in. Kylo is viewed as someone who would lose, because he's never won.

[hammerofglass]

I mentioned this before but look how the films set him up, people talk about him a lot, often with fear in their voices and the way they act when they meet him also presents that this is someone to be afraid of. Even when Poe makes fun of him you get the sense that it's out of fear for the monster standing before him. And for the first few minutes TFA tries to maintain this idea... then he throws a tantrum, and it's all downhill from there.

Characters continue to act like he's this horrifying monster AND starts to present the idea that he may be a misguided soul who was turned to evil. But the Kylo we keep getting remains a loser who we can't take seriously with him throwing more tantrums and becoming less intimidating as the story goes on. At the end the last we see of him he's on the ground bleeding showing how far he has fallen. This completely shatters the idea that we're suppose to be in anyway intimated by him. He's not a threat, he's someone for Rey to beat up and whom the viewer can't sympathize with.

Personally I thought the random violent tantrums were the one genuinely scary thing about him. Driver really nailed that "domestic abuser" energy.

[CharlesPhipps]

I mean, Kylo ren killed:

* Han Solo
* Luke Skywalker (he died doing his projection thing)
* Wiped out a bunch of Royal Guardsman
* Snoke
* 99% of the Resistance
* Conquered the galaxy between THE LAST JEDI and THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

He's by far the 2nd most successful villain the franchise but that DOESNT make him scary because evil isn't inherently scary.

Just dangerous.

[Winter]

I mean, Kylo ren killed:

* Han Solo
* Luke Skywalker (he died doing his projection thing)
* Wiped out a bunch of Royal Guardsman
* Snoke
* 99% of the Resistance
* Conquered the galaxy between THE LAST JEDI and THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

He's by far the 2nd most successful villain the franchise but that DOESNT make him scary because evil isn't inherently scary.

Just dangerous.

*Han: Killed while offering Kylo the hand of friendship
*Luke: Died more of a result of his crank call then an actual fight with an ability that will likely never appear again.
*Red Shirt Guards: Needed Rey's help or he would have died.
*Snoke: Backstabber him via mixed messages mind-reading.
*Resistance: No, he didn't, in fact most of the deaths of the Resistance was the result of Hux and Snoke and Kylo only kills a dozen or so (off-screen deaths don't count)
Conquering the Galaxy between films: No he didn't. Given everything we see he ran the First Order into the ground and said order turned on him at the first opportunity when Palpatine showed up.

The fact that Kylo took Palp's offer to shows that he was losing the war and the fact that the Resistance was on it's last legs in TLJ and was back to full fighting strength by ROS (which was a year in universe) further highlights that he didn't Conquer anything. If Palpatine hadn't shown up it's likely that Kylo would have lost everything.

Compare him with Vader in the Original Trilogy.

Vader captured the Rebels who'd stolen the Death Star Plans, killed Obi-Wan in a duel, destroyed most of the Rebel fighters and nearly killed Luke. In Empire he drives the Rebels from Hoth, captures Luke's friends, DEFEATS Luke in their first duel and almost breaks Luke's will by revealing the truth. He doesn't do much in Return of the Jedi but that's because the film was setting up his redemption by giving him moments of humanity.

Kylo has more in common with Dark Helmet then he does with Vader and most of his "Successes" are old men being killed while they put up no fight and one of them was pranking him. The red guards would have been the Death of him if not for Rey and even they, oh yay, he killed a bunch of glorified henchmen who failed at the only job they had.

And again, no he didn't wipe out most of the Resistance Hux did that and Kylo LOST them on his first day as leader of the First Order and they were back to near full strength in a year and again, no he didn't Conquer the galaxy, he LOST what progress the First Order HAD Made. Again, as soon as Palpatine offers him his help Kylo takes it and he STILL fails at the one task he was given "Kill the Girl".

And when he switches sides he does NOTHING of value. In fact he makes things WORSE because by showing up Palpatine was able to draw power from both of them and restore himself and then got tossed on of the scene and did NOTHING to help at the end.

This is what I mean when I say Kylo will only ever be seen as a joke villain. What few successes he does have are the result of people NOT trying to fight him OR him needing help. Even Star Wars itself have started to make fun of Kylo and his MANY failures as shown in the Lego Holiday Special where Kylo is presented as a lesser threat next to Vader and Palpatine.

[sayla0079]

My money would be on Ren he can fight long distance when needed thanks to force powers.

[Winter]

My money would be on Ren he can fight long distance when needed thanks to force powers.

Problem is, as I said, he doesn't use his Force Powers all that much, even when it would benefit him and sticks mostly to his lightsaber. Take the fight with the Red Guards, he NEVER uses his powers during that fight despite going up against None-Force Users. Same thing with his fight with Finn and most of his fights with Rey, the later he doesn't use his powers in their own and only fight and the latter I think he only uses his powers against her fight like 5 times (freezes her in their first encounter (which he never uses after that point), Force Pushing her against a Tree, two tug-of-wars (first for Luke's Lightsaber and second for the ship Rey thought Chewie was on) and stopping her lightsaber from striking him in their final duel).

Part of the rules set by Death Battle is not just the characters powers but their tactics too and Kylo almost never uses his powers. This even extends to the Supplementary Material where we see him again almost never use his powers until he does and ONLY against other Force Users. There's his Force Freeze powers but Catra can get around this by getting in his head and screwing with him until the freeze stopped working which we know happens after set amount of time or if Kylo loses focus (which happens all the time).

That's why I maintain that Catra would win despite not having any Force Powers, she's strong on her own, is agile at Hell and is a skilled strategist and can get into people's heads. Kylo doesn't even seem to be that powerful despite being the Grandson of Vader as he is outclassed by everyone else who uses the Force even an untrained newbie who spent most of her life looking for scrap.

[Madner Kami]

Star Wars warrior-magicians hang in a wierd limbo in that regard. Pretty much every property treated them as Space-Wujia only, which makes no sense. There has only ever been one property which dared to present them as the power-houses they really are: Force Unleashed.