Fascism is Heroarchy

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Yeah I don’t find scapegoating to be the central tenet. National ambitions tend to adhere to that as a pre requisite to national identity, not an end state goal.

I wouldn’t define fascism by means of the voters’ identities, it centers around the leader/administration.

[clearspira]

The major problem with this entire conversation is that humans have free will and trying to put anyone and everyone into some box as to why they made the ultimate sacrifice is futile.

Batman would sacrifice his life to ensure that no child ever has to lose his parents to some punk with a gun.
Captain America would sacrifice himself simply because its the right thing to do.
Superman would sacrifice himself for truth, justice and the American way.
Spider-Man would sacrifice himself for ''great power, comes great responsibility.''
Tony Stark (MCU) would sacrifice himself to atone for his obvious PTSD.

This are not even remotely the same people even though they all dress up in funny costumes and yet ultimately their fates are potentially the same.

[MithrandirOlorin]

The major problem with this entire conversation is that humans have free will and trying to put anyone and everyone into some box as to why they made the ultimate sacrifice is futile.

Batman would sacrifice his life to ensure that no child ever has to lose his parents to some punk with a gun.
Captain America would sacrifice himself simply because its the right thing to do.
Superman would sacrifice himself for truth, justice and the American way.
Spider-Man would sacrifice himself for ''great power, comes great responsibility.''
Tony Stark (MCU) would sacrifice himself to atone for his obvious PTSD.

This are not even remotely the same people even though they all dress up in funny costumes and yet ultimately their fates are potentially the same.

The Belief that Humans have Free Will is also pretty Fascist, I subscribe to materialism not Existentialism.

Again my issue is not with Sacrifice itself but a certain way of thinking about it.

There is nothing inherently Fascist about what happens in Endgame, but I do see Fascism in all the people before came out debating who would die with the clear attitude no one dying wasn't an option, that would be a cowardly cop out.

Which was also a big part of criticism of the second Ant-Man film, how do they set up a dilemma of choosing who to save only to then save both anyway.

A lot of my favorite Anime are Visual Novel adaptations and magical Girl shows that reject that attitude and insist on saving everyone with no Sacrifice necessary.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'm not saying it is exclusive, that isn't the point.

There’s no way you can take a single agent, make them a modernist appropriate hero, then equate them to the subordinates of fascism. The heroism aspect could only be specifically designated to the dictator while the rhetoric of fascism explicitly separates the dictator from the subordinates. The dictator doesn’t sacrifice themselves in fascism. Heroes on the other hand break out of the subordinate role, and the stories never establish a fascist state as a result.

There’s a lot of consistency between fandoms and the people that fascism exploits, but those people aren’t “fascism”.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I'm not saying it is exclusive, that isn't the point.

There’s no way you can take a single agent, make them a modernist appropriate hero, then equate them to the subordinates of fascism. The heroism aspect could only be specifically designated to the dictator while the rhetoric of fascism explicitly separates the dictator from the subordinates. The dictator doesn’t sacrifice themselves in fascism. Heroes on the other hand break out of the subordinate role, and the stories never establish a fascist state as a result.

There’s a lot of consistency between fandoms and the people that fascism exploits, but those people aren’t “fascism”.

You're just plain wrong, I don't want to actually tell people to watch the Cultured Thug video where he talks about his favorite movies, but it's made clear there, the Heroism does apply to all Soldiers not just the Leader. That's why WW1 veterans who felt screwed over were often the foot soldiers of these movements.

[hammerofglass]

That you're completely dismissing all of the decades of scholarship on the topic in favor of the opinion of some random YouTuber you don't even like or seem to think is honest has me a bit baffled.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I critique bad ideologies base don how they define themselves rather then straw manning them.

But his video is not the sole basis of my argument, those Veterans wouldn't have supported Fascism if they didn't feel Fascism saw heroism in being a random low ranked Solider.

And the "decades of scholarship" about Fascism is nonsense, everyone defines it differently and Eco's ideas are not actually Academically respected as Breadtubers pretend it is.

[hammerofglass]

So have you actually read any scholarship on the topic? Robert Paxton maybe, he's pretty popular? Maybe Inside Hitler's Germany, that was the one we read in school (probably a bit outdated now). Honestly I'm a bit skeptical you've actually read Eco's essay rather than hearing some youtuber quote parts of it.

Frankly the definition you're proposing is so broad that I don't think any form of government that didn't meet it could possibly exist.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I'm not actually proposing a definition so much as a common ancestor. As when you break down the specific I actually consider Nazism and Fascism quite distinct.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'm not actually proposing a definition so much as a common ancestor. As when you break down the specific I actually consider Nazism and Fascism quite distinct.

Heroism has roots in military for sure. Just though, you don’t really need to be fascist to honor military contribution… or sacrifice. And as far as encouraging sacrifice, I don’t think that’s the ‘norm’ for heroic tales.

If you see a sacrifice done in a story, it’s possible that it was encouraging it, but subtext isn’t really regulated to that extent. And it for sure is going to be regarded as noble, as death is important in any story.