Fascism is Heroarchy

[MithrandirOlorin]

No I don't. But I do think it's relevant.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

So, Fascism in any form doesn't do anything to actually claim Heroism. Fascist philosophy declaring Mussolini a hero is about the same as the Nazis claiming Aryan heritage. It's a glorification of something already established to put the main subject on a pedestal.

[MithrandirOlorin]

The problem is I never meant my original thesis here to stand alone, I was hoping would look into what Carlyle's Heroarchy was and why people had been linking it to Fascism already for Decades. I'm just continuing that discussing and using it as an excuse to talk about some observations I had regarding a few Anime and Star Wars.

[pilight]

Spider-Man is about you rising above to do good.

Because you've got a more individualistic point of view, particularly a very american way of viewing things. Look at Spiderman through the lense of someone who's less inclined to think that way and what you see is an Ubermensch raising himself above all, including the democratically constructed law. Ayn Rand says hello and so does Hitler.

''With great power comes great responsibility.''

Also.

''Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.''

Surely your response to this conundrum is what elevates you to the status of hero? The man you are describing sounds like Homelander, not Spider-Man.

''With great power comes great responsibility.'' is just a rephrasing of Nobless Oblige. It's also essentially the basis for "The White Man's Burden".

It's much older than that. It's from the Parable of the Faithful Servant, as recorded in the Bible.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The problem is I never meant my original thesis here to stand alone, I was hoping would look into what Carlyle's Heroarchy was and why people had been linking it to Fascism already for Decades. I'm just continuing that discussing and using it as an excuse to talk about some observations I had regarding a few Anime and Star Wars.

Well that’s definitely fair enough. This is something that’s fairly common in philosophy in general though. And I do love looking into this stuff, so sorry if you’ve got me wrong so to speak.

You’ll often find a philosophy latching on to one consistency and using that consistency to more or less define the philosophy of the subject. The causal nature of that consistency it’s pretty much the pudding that the reader has to taste, to which point the outcome of the validity of the philosophy turns into a rotten tomatoes game, where history tends to unearth the victor. Needless to say, Carlyle isn’t the biggest name in the field.

[hammerofglass]

Is being a good or bad person even relevant to Hero status in this context? Heracles is a lot closer to Homelander than he is to Superman after all.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Is being a good or bad person even relevant to Hero status in this context? Heracles is a lot closer to Homelander than he is to Superman after all.

Classical heroism is more divine oriented while modern heroism is subject to modernist standards instead. If a hero did something bad back in the day it was judged against the purpose of the action which would be good.

I think anti heroes aren’t really a distinction for classical, which isn’t much of a dilemma for consideration if heroism is in the scope of battle or warfare as classical heroism is.

[CharlesPhipps]

Spider-Man is about you rising above to do good.

Because you've got a more individualistic point of view, particularly a very american way of viewing things. Look at Spiderman through the lense of someone who's less inclined to think that way and what you see is an Ubermensch raising himself above all, including the democratically constructed law. Ayn Rand says hello and so does Hitler.

I have yet to encounter anyone outside the United States or Europe who argues the state should be trusted to wield power responsibly.

One of the things that there's a very Western Democracy centric POV is the "Cult of the State" that sells the lie that governments are ever anything other than violent oligarchies. One of the things I liked about THIS IS THE POLICE was it was a video game written and developed by Eastern European developers.

It was, of course, a set of games that displayed the police as absolutely worse than actual criminals and engaged in horrifying police brutality as well as crimes.

The assumption a vigilante is worse than the police or rising above the laws of people requires a lie told to oneself--that the law serves the people and is made by them.

Ayn Rand Hitler are hard to take seriously as cults of heroism because in America, Ayn Rand is the Bible of the majority power in places like my state (Kentucky) and Hitler is the goal of most authoritarians. Which means that individuals must stand against them because the collective supports the evil and fascist.

''With great power comes great responsibility.'' is just a rephrasing of Nobless Oblige. It's also essentially the basis for "The White Man's Burden".

I'll give you a dollar if you can explain "power has no responsibilities or obligations" makes sense.

But I'm an anarchist and believe that if the people give anyone any sort of power, that they are obligated to use it for the benefit of others. Because if you believe "power is to be used however the powerful desire because they are powerful" you have introduced social darwinist and fascism.

[CharlesPhipps]

Classical heroism is more divine oriented while modern heroism is subject to modernist standards instead. If a hero did something bad back in the day it was judged against the purpose of the action which would be good.

I think anti heroes aren’t really a distinction for classical, which isn’t much of a dilemma for consideration if heroism is in the scope of battle or warfare as classical heroism is.

Speaking as a guy who took a lot of mythology classes, who came up with this? I feel like there was an agenda there because it attempts to ignore the fact that heroes of Greek Mythology routinely met tragic and horrifying ends BECAUSE they were assholes.

One example being that Medea being cheated on and getting her revenge was actually the subject of "fix fic" (where she marries Achilles in the afterlife) centuries later because there was a general consensus she was treated shitilly by her husband.

Is being a good or bad person even relevant to Hero status in this context? Heracles is a lot closer to Homelander than he is to Superman after all.

Ehhhh.

I think part of the issue is the assumption that audiences didn't know Herakles was a fuck up when, in fact the stories made it abundantly clear the audience knew he was. Herakles isn't unquestionably admired and has to do his labors explicitly BECAUSE he has offended the gods by murdering his family. Herakles must do atonement for his evil deeds. The fact Hera drove him mad to do it doesn't really free him from it.

We act like the Greeks didn't have extremely strict standards of behavior and obligation even as their popular fiction had their heroes violate it because--well, that's how fiction works.

[MithrandirOlorin]

Spider-Man is about you rising above to do good.

Because you've got a more individualistic point of view, particularly a very american way of viewing things. Look at Spiderman through the lense of someone who's less inclined to think that way and what you see is an Ubermensch raising himself above all, including the democratically constructed law. Ayn Rand says hello and so does Hitler.

I have yet to encounter anyone outside the United States or Europe who argues the state should be trusted to wield power responsibly.

One of the things that there's a very Western Democracy centric POV is the "Cult of the State" that sells the lie that governments are ever anything other than violent oligarchies. One of the things I liked about THIS IS THE POLICE was it was a video game written and developed by Eastern European developers.

It was, of course, a set of games that displayed the police as absolutely worse than actual criminals and engaged in horrifying police brutality as well as crimes.

The assumption a vigilante is worse than the police or rising above the laws of people requires a lie told to oneself--that the law serves the people and is made by them.

Ayn Rand Hitler are hard to take seriously as cults of heroism because in America, Ayn Rand is the Bible of the majority power in places like my state (Kentucky) and Hitler is the goal of most authoritarians. Which means that individuals must stand against them because the collective supports the evil and fascist.

I used to more unambiguously call myself an Anarchist, but it is exactly this attitude that it's metaphysically impossible for a State to ever do any good that has turned me off to a lot of Anarchist philosophy.

I would ideally like no State, and I agree with Anarchist Skepticism of the Marxist notion that the State would just wither away on it's own once Class has been abolished. But I do think there are Government and even Kings who's actions have however flawed been an overall Net positive. From David to Cyrus to Marius to Constans and Valentinian I. I'm even an apologized for Oliver Cromwell and the Napoleons and have very nuanced thoughts on Stalin.

As far as ML Regimes that currently go however I only have any fondness for Cuba and Vietnam.