How would you redo the Punisher?

[Winter]

Okay different tack to the John Wick/Frank Castle disparity.

No bloody moralizing.

They killed his dog, ergo they're all gonna die. No one turns up in a primary colour costume to complain that we shouldn't kill Theon in an annoyingly whiny manner, and because it's not their comic, they are of course totally in the wrong, and are so much more immature than the guy wearing black and a skull, and it's right that we should just shoot all the criminals cause superheroes don't solve anything, and the only possible solution is the very final one.

John Wick just gets on with it which is significantly more entertaining.

To put it another way Frank Castle is actually Frank Grimes.

He's there to contrast the unrealistic superheroes, and show how things should be handled realistically, and also don't question how many supposedly super realistic characters actually live between two bowling alleys.

One of the problem I had when I was still reading Punisher comics, and I used to read a ton of them trying to re-capture some of the magic of reading DC's Hitman, is how frequently he gets to win in those comparisons. It'd be like if in that episode of the Simpsons, Grimey's scheme worked, Homer got fired for entering that kid's competition, he lost his mansion of a house, and it'd all be very 'mature' and 'realistic' which of course translates to nihilistic, grim, and depressing.

That's the thing though, Frank Castle DOESNT lecture.

He doesn't say superheroes are ineffective.

He often expresses admiration for Captain America and even Spider-Man. He's very much not an Ennis character who mocks guys in spandex despite Ennis writing him.

SUPERHEROES (and their writers) express disdain for FRANK.

Ennis' writing on Superheroes always bugs me. Just recently I saw a video on how The Boys, have killed the Superhero genre. It's dead, it will never be as good as it was blah blah blah and also made a point on how The Boys is a more "Realistic" take on Superheroes. And then Insomniac's Spider-Man 2 was released and is one of the highest crossing games of the year and contender for Game of the Year and he spent half an hour trying to hand wave that away that it wasn't "Really" successful it just happened to get a lot of money and was praised by critics and fans alike.

It's a bit more convoluted then that but that is the long and short of it, it's not successful it was did Really REALLY REALLY well!

But back over to Ennis, something that always bugs me about his writing when he writes his parodies of Marvel and DC he often has to make his analogue characters as horrible as possible in order to win an argument. The Professor X is a pedophile, Captain America is a wimp who's so totally not as cool as The Punisher, some are drunks, many are abusive and have zero redeeming qualities.

Now I've heard that Ennis is an overall nice guy and when commissioned by Marvel and DC to write one of their characters he does his job to the best of his abilities and tries to not let his feelings about these characters get in the way of the job he was hired to do. I'm not trying to insult the guy I'm just saying what I've seen and what he himself has said.

To take a look at Captain America, I know he outright hates this character, calling him an insult to Veterans and real soldiers despite, A) Being created by not one but two Veterans and B) Being hugely popular with soldiers and veterans. But he LOVES The Punisher and yet he doesn't really understand him. As CharlesPhipps said Frank admires Steve Rogers as he was the one who inspired him to become a soldier and he does respect Spider-Man and understands the hardships of the X-Men and The Hulk.

But let's shelve that for now and focus on the whole "More realistic" take on Superheroes. This bugs me because... No, it's not more realistic then what we usually get in Marvel and DC. If anything it's less realistic then what it's criticizing because it's just going to the opposite extreme. Some view Superheroes as unrealistic because they're overly optimistic and think that everyone that would gain such powers would become violent monsters because if they were given such power that's what they would do while others point to people who have done terrible things when given power.

But this ignores all those who also gained power are DIDN'T become corrupt.

Case in point Mr. Rogers.

That man became one of the most influential people in the world, who had the power to show people how he saw the world and we still talk about him today. And what did he do with that influence? He used it to help people, to make the world just a little brighter because he believed in the good of humanity and when showed us why he felt that way you understood and saw that he was right.

To quote xkcd "Mr. Rogers projected an air of genuine, unwavering, almost saintly pure-hearted decency. But when you look deeper, at the person behind the image ... that's exactly what you find there, too. He's exactly what he appears to be."

[CharlesPhipps]

THE BOYS are entertaining if you enjoy the darker and edgier take on superheroes but cynicism isn't realism and I actually think the TV show version is far more believable than the comic. The thing is that the TV show is satirizing corporate culture and celebrity while Ennis is just satirizing superheroes. Superman/Homelander is incompetent because superheroes are stupid, not because raising a child in a lab will leave him fucked up.

The Punisher is a fine character on his own but I think he works best in MAX the same way that Hellblazer didn't really work in the DCU but worked best in Vertigo. I think if the Punisher is in the mainstream Marvel Universe there's still plenty to do with him, though. There's no end of terrorist and criminal organizations for a guy whose power is, "good with guns."

Hydra, the Magia, and so on that, for whatever reason, we don't see Frank Castle fighting every so often.

[stryke]

That's the thing though, Frank Castle DOESNT lecture.

He doesn't say superheroes are ineffective.

Guess you and me just been reading different Punisher comics which is why we're not seeing eye to eye in this.

Just to pick just one example of the top of my head. That issue where he chains up Daredevil and puts a gun in his hand is absolutely a lecture.

[Winter]

That's the thing though, Frank Castle DOESNT lecture.

He doesn't say superheroes are ineffective.

Guess you and me just been reading different Punisher comics which is why we're not seeing eye to eye in this.

Just to pick just one example of the top of my head. That issue where he chains up Daredevil and puts a gun in his hand is absolutely a lecture.

On that note one thing I liked about how that scene was handled in the Daredevil TV series is how they changed the ending. Originally Matt DID shoot at Frank which many didn't like because it was out of character for Matt. The Netflix show changed it so Matt instead shot the chain holding him which many felt was in character.

This is also a great example of what I mean that Frank adds something when paired up with other heroes. The arguments between the two in the first couple of episodes of season 2 are honestly really engaging and I love how Frank is used in this story. To quote Frank "You're just one bad day away from being me." is a question that hangs over many superheroes because Frank is directing his anger only at those who deserve it. He isn't hunting randomly, he avoids hurting civilians and most of those he kills many would say deserved worse.

As I said Frank works best when he plays off other heroes because while they are often in conflict with him they see what could happen to them under them if they crossed the line and none of them are sure he's wrong. They think killing is wrong but they see there is a good person there and many want to bring him back to the light but it's honestly to late. Frank has crossed the line and he can't go back to the side those he respects and admires are on.

[MightyDavidson]

Okay different tack to the John Wick/Frank Castle disparity.

No bloody moralizing.

They killed his dog, ergo they're all gonna die. No one turns up in a primary colour costume to complain that we shouldn't kill Theon in an annoyingly whiny manner, and because it's not their comic, they are of course totally in the wrong, and are so much more immature than the guy wearing black and a skull, and it's right that we should just shoot all the criminals cause superheroes don't solve anything, and the only possible solution is the very final one.

John Wick just gets on with it which is significantly more entertaining.

To put it another way Frank Castle is actually Frank Grimes.

He's there to contrast the unrealistic superheroes, and show how things should be handled realistically, and also don't question how many supposedly super realistic characters actually live between two bowling alleys.

One of the problem I had when I was still reading Punisher comics, and I used to read a ton of them trying to re-capture some of the magic of reading DC's Hitman, is how frequently he gets to win in those comparisons. It'd be like if in that episode of the Simpsons, Grimey's scheme worked, Homer got fired for entering that kid's competition, he lost his mansion of a house, and it'd all be very 'mature' and 'realistic' which of course translates to nihilistic, grim, and depressing.

That's the thing though, Frank Castle DOESNT lecture.

He doesn't say superheroes are ineffective.

He often expresses admiration for Captain America and even Spider-Man. He's very much not an Ennis character who mocks guys in spandex despite Ennis writing him.

SUPERHEROES (and their writers) express disdain for FRANK.

And let's be honest here, that's a bit of poor writing as well. I mean at least in the case of folks like Cap and Spidey. After all Spidey's worked with Punisher before, he knows that Punisher doesn't kill indiscriminately and that Punisher will pull his punches if a situation requires him to do so. After all, he's pulled his punches when he's worked with Spidey many times simply because Spidey's asked him too.

My point is, it seems more logical to me that Cap and Spidey would be trying to reform Frank rather then dismissing him out of hand. Sure maybe they couldn't turn him into a superhero like they are but they could get him off the self destructive path he's currently on.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'd make him a bounty hunter instead of a cop.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

As I said Frank works best when he plays off other heroes because while they are often in conflict with him they see what could happen to them under them if they crossed the line and none of them are sure he's wrong. They think killing is wrong but they see there is a good person there and many want to bring him back to the light but it's honestly to late. Frank has crossed the line and he can't go back to the side those he respects and admires are on.

I've been thinking about that lately and the way they did it in Season 2 of the Punisher was rather muddled. Especially in comparison to S2 of Daredevil.

[CharlesPhipps]

I'd make him a bounty hunter instead of a cop.

Well he's not going to be engaged in his former profession either way.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'd make him a bounty hunter instead of a cop.

Well he's not going to be engaged in his former profession either way.

You're gonna have to trust me on this one.

[CharlesPhipps]

You're gonna have to trust me on this one.

No, just curious at your reasoning.