How would you redo the Punisher?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

You're gonna have to trust me on this one.

No, just curious at your reasoning.

It would be a more interesting take on his skill set and also his moral dispositioning each before and after his fallout. The prologue could be a distinct and complex crime epic -- kinda like Max Payne instead of Alex Murphy.

[Thebestoftherest]

I would love if they had a reoccuring joke where he annoyed by his own fans.

[CharlesPhipps]

I would love if they had a reoccuring joke where he annoyed by his own fans.

There was a 90s edgy hero called SHADOWHAWK who had to deal with a racist psycho killer imitator of himself.

Which you may think is too on the nose but was all set up for the fact where Shadowhawk pulls off his mask to show he's black.

[Thebestoftherest]

Consider cops use the punisher logo of his logo on their badge I think it too subtle.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Agreed.

[Nobody700]

Okay so here's my stance.

I'm pretty liberal as all things go, but I balk at people calling the Punisher alt right. The man ISN'T an Alt Right character, or even a caricature. He's an example of someone who was hit with intensely painful moment in a rather pained life, a victim who lost everything and so to cope, feels like hurting those who deserve it is how to prevent this happening. Similar to Batman in that regard. Here's the thing though. The Punisher kills people. This separates him from 90% of Marvel heroes, who do not kill or ONLY kill in extreme circumstances. The Punisher does not kill because he was taught killing was right, he does not kill because he hates those different from him whatever racially or politically, the Punisher is not someone who I have EVER seen espouse rightwing beliefs. Even Garth Ennis, who I believe is a bigot and I have receipts for that, has never had the Punisher espouse bigoted beliefs. The Punisher is NOT an alt right figure. Yet the Alt right DO latch on to him. Why is that?

He is a white cis het man who is a former vet, fits the archtype of 'alpha male' and hates the establishment and all those in it. He has low opinions of everyone he meets, even those he considers SOMETHING to be friends, is rather cruel in almost all circumstances when cruelty is not needed nor desired, and is a tough 'get tough' view. Despite that, the Punisher... also does not insult women, has decried racists in police and vigilante, and I can see gunning down those who attack gay pride parades. The Punisher does not like militant groups and hates the concept of other vigilantes, and once told a man that he was absolute garbage for killing a Mexican immigrant woman and called out another man for ONLY killing black criminals, considering him a Nazi for that. Frank Castle thus shows that while physically he APPEARS to be the darling for figures who are bigoted and enjoy power fantasies of death, he himself seems to detest that. This is a rather universal trait of his, really. Frank Castle has even gone after people blowing up government buildings because they are dangerous individuals, something he hates.

Thus when people think of fixing Frank, they don't actually want to fix him, they want to fix the IMAGE of what the Punisher is. Many people who don't read the Punisher may expect a Dirty Harry type (and I like the Dirty Harry movie I wanna say that), a rough and tumble no rules maverick who hates 'PC' and 'Liberals'. But Frank Castle... would kick Harry in the balls and tell him to quit being a cop or stick to the rules. Principle is what matters to Frank, it's why he didn't become a cop and get away with murdering crooks. Now sadly, he IS very popular with cops and I told my dad when he saw a Punisher cop logo ON a cop car, why I detest any officer who does so. They wanna revel in murder, killing, and no rules. They want to play as god, and that's peoples real problem with the character. Not what he is, but what people VIEW him as. A power fantasy that tends to be 'killing people who I don't like' and for them... almost always black people, feminists, or anything liberal. The Netflix show bent over BACKWARDS in season 1 justifying the Punisher while also having a character be a real life Punisher, and show why that's wrong. They knew he was a polarizing figure, despite his character not actually being polarizing. The Punisher doesn't need to be fixed, he needs to be shown that he isn't the fantasy of political extremists who want Frank Castle to gun down a black man for being NEAR a store, because none of these guys have seen the Punisher mock and kill Nazis. The Punisher is instead a symbol, of what happens when a man loses everything, has nothing to lose... and how terrifying a single man with a gun and all that training to use it can be.

Personally though, I rather dislike Frank Castle. I find he tends to have one story, and it's been done to death. He isn't interesting himself, and he's just rather tepid to me.

[Nobody700]

I would love if they had a reoccuring joke where he annoyed by his own fans.

There was a 90s edgy hero called SHADOWHAWK who had to deal with a racist psycho killer imitator of himself.

Which you may think is too on the nose but was all set up for the fact where Shadowhawk pulls off his mask to show he's black.

"So... Uh... you DON'T wanna sign my KKK hood?"

"Oh sure I will."

(Pops knife blade out of gauntlet and presses against his face)

"I'll make it a paragraph long."

Also all I know about Shadowhawk is I think he died of AIDS.

[CharlesPhipps]

90s superheroes, man.

[Nealithi]

I just want to pop in on this and mention there is an oddity in arguments.
"The Batman is bad because he does not kill his villains. So all those the Joker kills is Batman's fault."
"The Punisher is bad because he kills his villains and does not give them a chance to reform!"

Now I do not want Batman to kill. Not killing is part of his character. Having a diverse rogues gallery and having to think out a problem as often as he punches a problem is his comic. Punisher has what could be an engaging origin. Honest man, former soldier turned police officer. Loves his family and then organized crime took that all from him violently. And no one was there to punish those that took innocent lives. He, as a vigilante, has to start small. He is no millionaire, so he knocks over some small time gangs for their weapons and cash. Steals an unmarked van to turn into his rolling arsenal. All his work targeting criminals makes the streets just a little safer while building to his eventual showdown with the criminals responsible for the death of his family.

Could be a good mini-series or short run TV. But it is too long for a movie to do right, and too direct for a long run on a comic series. He has to get his payoff confrontation. But then what? I think we need to borrow a line from Harvey Dent. "Die a hero or live to see yourself as the villain". Punisher should get his final showdown. Punish the last one he needed to reach. Then die from his injuries. He is a mortal human being. His reward is seeing his family like Maximus in Gladiator.

[clearspira]

I just want to pop in on this and mention there is an oddity in arguments.
"The Batman is bad because he does not kill his villains. So all those the Joker kills is Batman's fault."
"The Punisher is bad because he kills his villains and does not give them a chance to reform!"

Now I do not want Batman to kill. Not killing is part of his character. Having a diverse rogues gallery and having to think out a problem as often as he punches a problem is his comic. Punisher has what could be an engaging origin. Honest man, former soldier turned police officer. Loves his family and then organized crime took that all from him violently. And no one was there to punish those that took innocent lives. He, as a vigilante, has to start small. He is no millionaire, so he knocks over some small time gangs for their weapons and cash. Steals an unmarked van to turn into his rolling arsenal. All his work targeting criminals makes the streets just a little safer while building to his eventual showdown with the criminals responsible for the death of his family.

Could be a good mini-series or short run TV. But it is too long for a movie to do right, and too direct for a long run on a comic series. He has to get his payoff confrontation. But then what? I think we need to borrow a line from Harvey Dent. "Die a hero or live to see yourself as the villain". Punisher should get his final showdown. Punish the last one he needed to reach. Then die from his injuries. He is a mortal human being. His reward is seeing his family like Maximus in Gladiator.

That sounds a lot like Billy Butcher from The Boys comic. He is probably one of the best Punisher expies out there, he even dresses the same.