Hermit's Journey Part III

[Asvarduil]

That being said, the whole, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" (facepalm) makes me always facepalm, EVERY time it is said, because it's such a terrible fallacy.

He's specifically talking about "with me or against me" absolutism, obviously the Jedi believe in definitive good and evil but are aware most people are in the middle. Yes the line should've been reworked but its not so fallacious in context.

While I get that's the intended point, that doesn't diminish that - even with the context of Obi-Wan confronting his former student about his turn to Darkness, as well as Force-Choking Padme Amidala - Obi-Wan's rebuttal is anything but clever, or cutting, or has any ability to de-escalate the conflict, or to convince his former friend and pupil to abandon his self-destructive path. It's just plain dumb; the context isn't enough to save the quote, or to defend it in any reasonable capacity, in my opinion.

Not only did it fail to defeat Anakin's position, or have any meaningful effect, it's such a weak position that when people take the facepalm-worthy statement to its logical conclusion, that conclusion is, "Obi-Wan is also a Sith Lord", since he too deals in absolutes, manipulation, and falsehoods, not at all unlike his erstwhile student. Frankly, if Obi-Wan had called Anakin a shithead, or jerk, or Neelix (sorry for redundancy), it would've been a step up, because at least it would've justified the lengthy fight scene (over kool-aid lava, because LucasArts clearly learned everything about lava from Super Mario Bros.) with Obi-Wan expressing clear-cut disdain for Anakin's newfound Sith allegiance. As it is, the line is just plain pathetic.

GG, Jedi. GG. That Coruscant Temple education sure worked for Obi-Wan.

[G-Man]

<i>I think the problem within the Prequels that tarnishes the Phantom Menance is what I described above, it's not a part of a trilogy. To me it's fine as a stand alone movie that shows Anakins background as a precursor to a trilogy and not a part of it, but as the first part of a trilogy it's utter shit that compressed the real arch of the trilogy into a dilogy. </i>

Hmmm.... I think the sheer irrelevance of Episode I was something I recognized at the time, not just in hindsight. But more to the point, I think it was worse than the other two, not just because it wasn't really part of the trilogy, but because the story was not that engaging. The big crisis was some political situation that really was not that interesting in terms of a swashbuckling movie (political intrigue can work in a movie where it is the focus, or in a TV show (think <i>Babylon 5</i> or <i>Deep Space Nine</i> but in a swashbuckling fantasy you want clearer reasons for someone being a face or a heel - the minute the bad guys were indicated to be the "Trade Federation" you knew things were bad). Then the victory was essentially right out of "The Pink Panther Strikes Again." This could have been interesting if it were brought up later on - if Anakin had some uncanny luck that turned out to be part of his Force sensitivity, but it overall failed to make a good climax.

And again, Darth Maul was there because there needed to be a bad guy to fight with a lightsaber. He was not terribly important to the rest of the plot.

Just on its own terms, the Phantom Menace did not seem to tell a story that I cared about.

[Fixer]

Anakin's whole presence there was also just incidental to the plot.

There's a lot of things wrong with how he was written as well. There was no need for him to be a "mechanical genius" to have made C3P0, or to have some sort of prophecy regarding him. The whole victory though random circumstance within the four simultaneous endings.

Imagine instead he had been discovered as a young man with extraordinary force potential and this brought out the Sith Assassin who was following the escape from Naboo. Maul seeing within Anakin the potential for an Apprentice that could overthrow his master. Making Anakin a pawn fought over between the Jedi and the Sith who both want to shape his future.

Could add a little greyness into there as well, perhaps Qui-gon was using Anakin to draw out the Sith again so they could prove his existence or destroy him.

Having Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fighting Maul for Anakin's future training might have been a better theme for the "Duel of the fates" than good guys meet bad guys and fight.

[G-Man]

Looking back, I think the big problem with the rest of the trilogy is best described by "The Distressed Watcher" in an old Channel Awesome piece no longer available (TDW is the same person as "The Amazing Atheist").

Anakin is never really a "good guy" who is seduced by the Dark Side. He is more a whiny brat who sort of realizes he always was on the Dark Side.

Moreover, tricking him by saying that the Sith have secret knowledge to save Amidala's life from "vague future death" seems to me an unnecessary addition - there should have been more organic reason for his fall - say he kept losing battles and people got killed because the Jedi "took the high road" and he eventually started disobeying rules, and then committing war crimes, because IT WORKED. Eventually he betrays the Jedi because they refuse a rescue mission to a planet where Amidala is that is under attack.

Still, the plots to those films was more interesting than the plot of the Phantom Menace, which is why I like them better. And they don't win battles by "oopsie!"

[Fixer]

Yes, having a legitimate beef with the Jedi order would have definitely helped.

Using extreme methods and being tempted more by the dark side in order to save people in an ever escalating conflict. Something else that RLM pointed out, the war seems to have no affect on the galaxy. Coruscant is much the same as it ever was and for your average Joe 9-5 worker the two expendable armies killing each other doesn't mean much.

Having Anakin show compassion for people starving in the streets because the separatists blockaded food supplies. Civilian traffic all but vanished, and replaced by military ships constantly patrolling the skies, throw in some EU stuff. The planetary defence shields are constantly on leading to constant lightning storms that wrack the planet.

Some actual human suffering that could be alleviated by taking action to end this war but the Jedi council just being too damn stubborn and tied to their outdated code. If only they could see! *Anakin Rages internally*

[Deledrius]

Having Anakin show compassion for people starving in the streets because the separatists blockaded food supplies. Civilian traffic all but vanished, and replaced by military ships constantly patrolling the skies, throw in some EU stuff. The planetary defence shields are constantly on leading to constant lightning storms that wrack the planet.

It would be consistent with the existing characterizations, too. The Jedi are taken as young children and live sheltered lives, so they mostly see this problem pragmatically and follow their traditions in how to deal with conflicts like that. Anakin, meanwhile, grew up in poverty as a slave and knows first-hand what kind of struggles those people are going through.

Moreover, tricking him by saying that the Sith have secret knowledge to save Amidala's life from "vague future death" seems to me an unnecessary addition - there should have been more organic reason for his fall - say he kept losing battles and people got killed because the Jedi "took the high road" and he eventually started disobeying rules, and then committing war crimes, because IT WORKED. Eventually he betrays the Jedi because they refuse a rescue mission to a planet where Amidala is that is under attack.

I think this series called "What If Star Wars Were Good" does an excellent job of taking as many existing plot elements as possible, and doing things like you suggest to make them actually escalate the conflicts and follow character arcs.


youtu.be/VgICnbC2-_Y

youtu.be/JAbug3AhYmw

youtu.be/6wKqH6vlGHU

[Fixer]

The tricky part to write when having Anakin turn against the Jedi Order, is to keep the Jedi order still compassionate and rational, while having Anakin's emotional reaction still understandable and human.

The loss of the Jedi Order and it's light in the galaxy still has to feel like a tragedy rather than a comeuppance.

[Yukaphile]

Here is a comment I recently posted on another video.

Somewhere along the line, something changed. While in the KOTOR era four thousand years ago love was frowned upon but not forbidden and older students were granted entry into the Jedi Order, by the time of the Clone Wars a handful of sensible ideals restrained by common sense and a moderate middle ground had been tainted. Now a loving relationship was outlawed straight-up and only babies were allowed to be "drafted" into the order. Hell, during the time of Darth Bane a thousand years before the Battle of Yavin, Jedi were still allowed to mourn, and then come during the era that saw the rise of the Empire, and now grief was forbidden as well because it was seen as selfish! And yet, what a better example to point to in order to demonstrate precisely why the Jedi of the Clone Wars had become both stagnant and spiritually dead? Alive, but with no spark of life, like a droid. No wonder Anakin was born to bring balance to the Force. Roughly ten thousand or so Jedi living life in such a manner is NOT "balance." It is too far of an extreme in the opposite direction of the dark side. But of course, that's just my opinion. Thoughts?

And this.

+Mikazuchi The biggest time gap would be between the conclusion to The Old Republic MMORPG game set around 3600 BBY to 1032 BBY where we pick up with Knight Errant and then the Darth Bane trilogy set through 1003 BBY to 980 BBY. Personally, I blame a lot of these inflexible changes on the Ruusan Reformations spearheaded by Chancellor Tarsus Valorum in the wake of the Republic's "apparent" victory over the Sith on Ruusan, that called for them to disband their military forces, refocus the Jedi into more of an interplanetary peacekeeping group, and so on and so forth. And while I don't doubt that nothing was ordered for the Jedi to comply with by the Chancellor or the Senate or even the Jedi Council, that they had most likely reflected a great deal on the changing galaxy and their new place within it, probably brought about under Yoda's tutelage because remember that he had been born only a century after the fall of Darth Bane, and that's when the more hard-line elements proposed sweeping revisions to the Jedi Code imposed on the Jedi Order over the centuries leading up to the Clone Wars. I mean, did you know that once the Jedi Code had been far different from what it was now? Instead of preaching that there was no emotion, only the Force, it postulated that there was emotion, but also the Force, to cite one example, which is far, far more reasonable, but that's just how I look at it.

[bronnt]

The tricky part to write when having Anakin turn against the Jedi Order, is to keep the Jedi order still compassionate and rational, while having Anakin's emotional reaction still understandable and human.

The loss of the Jedi Order and it's light in the galaxy still has to feel like a tragedy rather than a comeuppance.

The funny part is that I thought, for a brief moment, I thought Lucas had stumbled onto the perfect solution. When Dooku captures Obi-wan in Episode II, he tells him basically the whole plot: The senate is being controlled by a Sith Lord. What I thought on first viewing, until the ending where it was revealed that Dooku was just his apprentice and definitely evil, was that Dooku had left the Jedi order out of fear that one of THEM was the Sith Lord controlling the Senate and was trying to save the galaxy. The Jedi then fall from grace by siding against him, but only because they'd been cleverly manipulated.

The clever thing to do would have Dooku's revelation serve as the dividing point. He doesn't know who the Sith Lord is, but he's convinced that he's influencing events on Coruscant which has led him to make contacts with people outside of official circles. The Jedi would be too prideful to think that a Sith Lord is operating underneath their noses and assume that Dooku is misguided. Instead of the Separatists being brutal and militant, you could have them be more libertarian, wanting to break away from a government system they no longer have faith in. Palpatine, since he's the villain, then orders the deployment of clone army to re-establish order and keep the Republic from breaking apart.

If this came at the end of the first film, the second film could be about Anakin and Obi-wan independently finding different clues about what's going on and then heading toward different conclusions. As the war goes on, Anakin repeatedly makes more and more compromises of his principles as he grows disillusioned with the Jedi. The final film ramps up the stakes and has Anakin discover the full truth before he finally turns his back on the Jedi.