Utah passes anti-trans bathroom ban

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

The first state to ban trans people from peeing, thereby banning their public existence. More to follow if the Republicans gain ground.

Calm down Fuzzy, it's not like they've changed the law to define gender transition to not be in the best interests of the child when determining whether parents can keep their children.

Cause that's what Wyoming wants to do!

“To the extent applicable, in determining the best interests of the child under state law, there shall be a conclusive presumption that it is not in the best interests of the child to undergo any gender transition or gender reassignment procedures as defined by W.S. 20-2-206(a).” The list includes puberty blockers, hormone therapy, and surgery.''

...

Should a child automatically be removed from trans parents or because they themselves are trans? No. Of course not. That is needlessly cruel. Having a loving parent is the greatest and most valuable thing that you can have no matter who those parents are. I would argue that the love of your mum and dad is second only to food, water and air.

It's the bit that I highlighted that I have a problem with.

Apologies for the language but I really want to stress something here: you know absolutely FUCK and ALL about who and what you are when you are a child. You know nothing about real life, nothing about who you want to be when you grow up. Your hormones are in flux, your body is changing, your desires and wants are different, you'll have feelings and emotions that you've never had before and do not know what to do with, your interactions with other people are changing. Additionally, at no other stage in your life will you be as open to more negative influence from propaganda, peer pressure and social media. That's why terrorists and extremists target young men and not jaded old buggers like me who can see through their bullshit.

There will never ever be a more confusing and uncertain time in your life than between the ages of 11 and 18.

None of these procedures or treatments should be legal to give to a child. And the internet is full of stories of people who transitioned as soon as they could only to find out that they aren't actually trans. Google it, page after page. This isn't an isolated thing and they all say the same things: I was confused, I was pressured, I changed my mind, I was actually gay and didn't realise it.

This is not a game. This is potentially the next one hundred years of your life and you are not mentally equipped to make a decision on it after little more than a tenth of it has passed. And frankly it worries me that there are those in our society who deem that you are capable of deciding upon the future of your willy before you are legally allowed to buy a beer or smoke a cigarette.

You wanna read anything by pediatric experts in the field on that, or are we just going by vibes?

[hammerofglass]

clearspira I realize what you got sold was a scare story about an impulsive decision where they're giving eight year olds hormones and surgeries, but that's not a real thing. Because of course it isn't, that would be ridiculous.

There's a ton of evaluations from multiple doctors, at younger ages it's the same puberty blockers kids with precious puberty have been getting for decades which once the kid goes off them they go into puberty like normal with no lasting effects. Once they're older they can get the drugs that give them the right puberty, which saves a hell of a lot of trouble later. The number of actual surgeries before 18 isn't zero but it's damn near.

Also if you look through all those detransition horror stories you'll find it's all the same handful of names over and over. The actual detransition rate is only 3%.

[Thebestoftherest]

NOt only that, but how many of them detransitioned because they are unhappy, versus they need to crash on their parent couch and the parents says they are their birth gender.

[TGLS]

None of these procedures or treatments should be legal to give to a child.

Let's assume I agree with you for the sake of argument. We'll just take that one line, and just assume that it's totally correct.

So, what would be a remedy a state legislature could go with? Well I have a few options:

1) Forbid doctors from prescribing these treatments to children
2) Make it a crime to give puberty blockers/etc. to children
3) Investigate people who are possibly pressuring children to transition

Strangely, none of these are: "If a parent allows their child to transition, they are presumed to not be acting in their child's best interests for the purposes of custody. It is both a very drastic action, and not a direct action.

Like, do they expect that parents are going to their child's doctors and say, "I think Julian would be better off as Julie." and the doctor just goes along with it? If anything, I imagine the opposite would occur; the doctor comes in with the medical diagnosis and the parent goes along with it, as the doctor is perceived to be an expert.

All this seems to be doing is creating an adversarial relationship between the parent and the doctor, where the parent refuses, not necessarily because they disagree with the diagnosis, but because they don't want their children taken away.

[phantom000]

None of these procedures or treatments should be legal to give to a child.

Let's assume I agree with you for the sake of argument. We'll just take that one line, and just assume that it's totally correct.

So, what would be a remedy a state legislature could go with? Well I have a few options:

1) Forbid doctors from prescribing these treatments to children
2) Make it a crime to give puberty blockers/etc. to children
3) Investigate people who are possibly pressuring children to transition

Strangely, none of these are: "If a parent allows their child to transition, they are presumed to not be acting in their child's best interests for the purposes of custody. It is both a very drastic action, and not a direct action.

Like, do they expect that parents are going to their child's doctors and say, "I think Julian would be better off as Julie." and the doctor just goes along with it? If anything, I imagine the opposite would occur; the doctor comes in with the medical diagnosis and the parent goes along with it, as the doctor is perceived to be an expert.

All this seems to be doing is creating an adversarial relationship between the parent and the doctor, where the parent refuses, not necessarily because they disagree with the diagnosis, but because they don't want their children taken away.

I try not to be trans-phobic but I prefer to let them grow up before making any decisions which will impact the rest of their lives. Yes I understand that parents make choices that can impact their children for the rest of their lives but my point is that this is an issue even adults have a hard time understanding how can you expect a teenager to understand?

If it were a medical issue, that this was going to impact their health, then I would understand, but otherwise I say let the kids grow up first, they've already got enough to figure out without piling on more.

[hammerofglass]

None of these procedures or treatments should be legal to give to a child.

Let's assume I agree with you for the sake of argument. We'll just take that one line, and just assume that it's totally correct.

So, what would be a remedy a state legislature could go with? Well I have a few options:

1) Forbid doctors from prescribing these treatments to children
2) Make it a crime to give puberty blockers/etc. to children
3) Investigate people who are possibly pressuring children to transition

Strangely, none of these are: "If a parent allows their child to transition, they are presumed to not be acting in their child's best interests for the purposes of custody. It is both a very drastic action, and not a direct action.

Like, do they expect that parents are going to their child's doctors and say, "I think Julian would be better off as Julie." and the doctor just goes along with it? If anything, I imagine the opposite would occur; the doctor comes in with the medical diagnosis and the parent goes along with it, as the doctor is perceived to be an expert.

All this seems to be doing is creating an adversarial relationship between the parent and the doctor, where the parent refuses, not necessarily because they disagree with the diagnosis, but because they don't want their children taken away.

I try not to be trans-phobic but I prefer to let them grow up before making any decisions which will impact the rest of their lives. Yes I understand that parents make choices that can impact their children for the rest of their lives but my point is that this is an issue even adults have a hard time understanding how can you expect a teenager to understand?

If it were a medical issue, that this was going to impact their health, then I would understand, but otherwise I say let the kids grow up first, they've already got enough to figure out without piling on more.

You are piling on more in this scenario, though. You're forcing them through irreversible physical changes and fucking up their brain chemistry even more than puberty does anyway. Making a trans kid go through the wrong puberty when they don't have to is medically and ethically identical to forcing a cis kid to transition.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Is there any literature that talks about cis puberty being considered pervasive?

[Thebestoftherest]

They should really.

[phantom000]

None of these procedures or treatments should be legal to give to a child.

Let's assume I agree with you for the sake of argument. We'll just take that one line, and just assume that it's totally correct.

So, what would be a remedy a state legislature could go with? Well I have a few options:

1) Forbid doctors from prescribing these treatments to children
2) Make it a crime to give puberty blockers/etc. to children
3) Investigate people who are possibly pressuring children to transition

Strangely, none of these are: "If a parent allows their child to transition, they are presumed to not be acting in their child's best interests for the purposes of custody. It is both a very drastic action, and not a direct action.

Like, do they expect that parents are going to their child's doctors and say, "I think Julian would be better off as Julie." and the doctor just goes along with it? If anything, I imagine the opposite would occur; the doctor comes in with the medical diagnosis and the parent goes along with it, as the doctor is perceived to be an expert.

All this seems to be doing is creating an adversarial relationship between the parent and the doctor, where the parent refuses, not necessarily because they disagree with the diagnosis, but because they don't want their children taken away.

I try not to be trans-phobic but I prefer to let them grow up before making any decisions which will impact the rest of their lives. Yes I understand that parents make choices that can impact their children for the rest of their lives but my point is that this is an issue even adults have a hard time understanding how can you expect a teenager to understand?

If it were a medical issue, that this was going to impact their health, then I would understand, but otherwise I say let the kids grow up first, they've already got enough to figure out without piling on more.

You are piling on more in this scenario, though. You're forcing them through irreversible physical changes and fucking up their brain chemistry even more than puberty does anyway. Making a trans kid go through the wrong puberty when they don't have to is medically and ethically identical to forcing a cis kid to transition.

Like I said if there is a medical reason to transition, that not doing so would have a negative impact on their health, then by all means, do what you need to do. But aside from that one circumstance, I would argue against it until they were adults.

[Thebestoftherest]

I would like to add something to the debate, is it possible that all the rhetoric surrounding the topic might change the doctor opinion, like would a doctor say a child that need to transition shouldn't out of fear it might hurt their medical career.