Silly Question Time: Should I Make Terry McGinnis a Red Head?

[Thebestoftherest]

Fair fair enough.

[McAvoy]

Ehhh. Could be worse. Winter could talking about the umpteenth time about the same subject for 400 pages because she saw something on some YouTube comment section.

I wonder if the design of Batman Beyond was inspired by anime. This is me not knowing any background information beyond: wow this show is great!

[Thebestoftherest]

Talking about DBF?

[CharlesPhipps]

It's utterly unnecessary that Terry is Bruce's son.

But it was a choice by the creators and they are the ones who get to decide what is and is not true about Terry and Bruce's relationship. I also like how it's a deconstruction as the discovery HURTS Terry's relationship with Bruce rather than helps it.

Bruce finding out he has a biological offspring means nothing because he already has adoptive children he loves justa s much. He's also furious, I suspect, that Waller effectively sexually abused him by stealing his genetic material.

Something that got brought up with Superman's relationship with Connor in YOUNG JUSTICE. Everyone kept acting like he was Kal's son without feeling how he might feel about this violation of his bodily autonomy.

[Winter]

It's utterly unnecessary that Terry is Bruce's son.

But it was a choice by the creators and they are the ones who get to decide what is and is not true about Terry and Bruce's relationship.

Sometimes the creators make mistakes, I mean I don't know many who are going to be defending the creative choices of The Dark Knight Strikes again or All-Star Batman and Robin Boy Wonder. Or to use a DCAU example, Bruce and Barbara... romantic relationship... uuugggghhhh!

Sometimes writers come up with ideas that are just plain bad and if someone else comes along to re-work the series they should be given the option to change things.

Terry was not Bruce's son until Justice League Unlimited which the result of a fan noting Terry's hair color was different from his parents. And means they went with addressing this was, IMO, convoluted and needlessly hurt the characters the most notable being Andrea who was going to kill Terry's parents in front of him which is SO out of character for her.

Sure there are interesting stories that could come from Terry being Bruce's son but there are now more problems with that today then there was 18 years ago, the most notable one being Damian Wayne. Because of Damian being Bruce's biological son the various stories ideas and plot points that can be raised with Terry being Bruce's son have all been done with Terry making that idea rather redundant.

The other major issue is the one I already covered that being that it undercuts Terry's existing arc. Terry is convinced that he is only of value because he is Batman but Bruce says it's the other way around that Batman is nothing without Terry. I just do not care for this idea and it's the center piece of this twist.

[Thebestoftherest]

I think it be fun I don't think we gotten a red head in the Bat family other than Barbara.

[CharlesPhipps]

Sometimes the creators make mistakes, I mean I don't know many who are going to be defending the creative choices of The Dark Knight Strikes again or All-Star Batman and Robin Boy Wonder. Or to use a DCAU example, Bruce and Barbara... romantic relationship... uuugggghhhh!

Sometimes writers come up with ideas that are just plain bad and if someone else comes along to re-work the series they should be given the option to change things.

Terry was not Bruce's son until Justice League Unlimited which the result of a fan noting Terry's hair color was different from his parents. And means they went with addressing this was, IMO, convoluted and needlessly hurt the characters the most notable being Andrea who was going to kill Terry's parents in front of him which is SO out of character for her.

Sure there are interesting stories that could come from Terry being Bruce's son but there are now more problems with that today then there was 18 years ago, the most notable one being Damian Wayne. Because of Damian being Bruce's biological son the various stories ideas and plot points that can be raised with Terry being Bruce's son have all been done with Terry making that idea rather redundant.

The other major issue is the one I already covered that being that it undercuts Terry's existing arc. Terry is convinced that he is only of value because he is Batman but Bruce says it's the other way around that Batman is nothing without Terry. I just do not care for this idea and it's the center piece of this twist.

Yes, they do sometimes make mistakes but this wasn't a hasty retcon. This was the second planned premise for a Batman Beyond movie after RETURN OF THE JOKER. The fact they made it into a Justice Unlimited episode isn't a sign it wasn't deeply embedded into their idea mine.

But I don't think that your other points are necessary there either. Damien Wayne being Bruce's biological son is his hangup because he thinks it gives him an edge over Dick Grayson (who is more a father figure to him than Bruce Wayne) and Tim Drake. When Bruce never shows the slightest preference to Damien over those other two, no matter what the medium. Which is a good lesson for adoptees.

Likewise, in the BB universe, Terry doesn't found out that he's Bruce's son until something like 15 years into being Batman, which means that Terry is probably 30 years old. Given I can't imagine Bruce wouldn't have figured out Terry was his biological son within a few days of meeting him for the first time (he strikes me as the kind of guy who'd take blood tests and do scans of all of his friends). this actually adds an interesting wrinkle to their story. Bruce doesn't want to replace Terry's dad.

It's melodrama but it's not like the world of Batman: The ANimated series and its spinoffs wasn't full of melodrama.

[Winter]

Sometimes the creators make mistakes, I mean I don't know many who are going to be defending the creative choices of The Dark Knight Strikes again or All-Star Batman and Robin Boy Wonder. Or to use a DCAU example, Bruce and Barbara... romantic relationship... uuugggghhhh!

Sometimes writers come up with ideas that are just plain bad and if someone else comes along to re-work the series they should be given the option to change things.

Terry was not Bruce's son until Justice League Unlimited which the result of a fan noting Terry's hair color was different from his parents. And means they went with addressing this was, IMO, convoluted and needlessly hurt the characters the most notable being Andrea who was going to kill Terry's parents in front of him which is SO out of character for her.

Sure there are interesting stories that could come from Terry being Bruce's son but there are now more problems with that today then there was 18 years ago, the most notable one being Damian Wayne. Because of Damian being Bruce's biological son the various stories ideas and plot points that can be raised with Terry being Bruce's son have all been done with Terry making that idea rather redundant.

The other major issue is the one I already covered that being that it undercuts Terry's existing arc. Terry is convinced that he is only of value because he is Batman but Bruce says it's the other way around that Batman is nothing without Terry. I just do not care for this idea and it's the center piece of this twist.

Yes, they do sometimes make mistakes but this wasn't a hasty retcon. This was the second planned premise for a Batman Beyond movie after RETURN OF THE JOKER. The fact they made it into a Justice Unlimited episode isn't a sign it wasn't deeply embedded into their idea mine.

But I don't think that your other points are necessary there either. Damien Wayne being Bruce's biological son is his hangup because he thinks it gives him an edge over Dick Grayson (who is more a father figure to him than Bruce Wayne) and Tim Drake. When Bruce never shows the slightest preference to Damien over those other two, no matter what the medium. Which is a good lesson for adoptees.

Likewise, in the BB universe, Terry doesn't found out that he's Bruce's son until something like 15 years into being Batman, which means that Terry is probably 30 years old. Given I can't imagine Bruce wouldn't have figured out Terry was his biological son within a few days of meeting him for the first time (he strikes me as the kind of guy who'd take blood tests and do scans of all of his friends). this actually adds an interesting wrinkle to their story. Bruce doesn't want to replace Terry's dad.

It's melodrama but it's not like the world of Batman: The ANimated series and its spinoffs wasn't full of melodrama.

This is how I see it, I am not a fan of Diana aka Wonder Woman being retconned to be the Daughter of Zeus. It removes what made her interesting to begin with and misses the point of her character, that she was a woman untouched by men. She had no father but was instead made of clay and given life by the Gods when Hippolyta asked for a daughter.

DC Rebirth later tried to retcon this retcon and have it where Diana WASN'T the daughter of Zeus and that story she was told was a lie only to later try and re-retcon the reton that was intended to undo the first retcon because DC loves retcons even when they're stupid.

My point is even though this wasn't introduced until later it's still something I don't like and it's not territory that has been explored with other characters throughout Greek Mythology. It's actualy rather funny a few years ago I got into a debate with someone on this idea and their defense on why Diana being a daughter of Zeus was a good idea was because it was "More Original" then her origin to which I replied, out-loud in a a comic book store filled with kids "Most of Greek Mythology can be summed up as 'and then Zeus failed to keep it in his pants'!" I got a standing ovation for that before the store owner politely asked me to leave before quote, "The children ask what was in Zeus pants".

I'm fine with melodrama I LIVE for melodrama. I'm that girl who squeed out loud when Captain America FINALLY said "AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!" and when Batman said "I'm Vengeance" and I get that there are people who like or even love this idea. But for me it's as bad as Diana being the Daughter of Zeus and for the same reason, it betrays what the character stood for and turns it into something else.

I especially dislike how much Terry's character is changed in this story, both in his design and personality. Look at Terry at Epilogue vs. how he looks in Beyond, apparent from his hair, skin and eyes he looks NOTHING like Terry did in his own show. He's bulkier and his chin has gone from pointy to boxy which is the show trying to make it more believable that he's Bruce's son because when you get down to it the two don't really look that much alike.

And in terms of personality Terry is a lot more serious and aggressive. Yes Terry could be aggressive but there was always a lightheartedness to him, he was basically Peter Parker if he was less of a geek.

This is really the core of my problem, this doesn't feel like Terry, it's feels the show is changing Terry to be more like Bruce. His design and personality are changed to make line up with the OG Batman instead of Batman Beyond. Even his fighting style changed, Terry moved around a lot, his more agile and had a "Make it up as you go" style but in Epilogue he's now more of a brawler like Bruce is usually depicted as.

And this has since started a trend in BB stories with the series trying to turn Terry into Bruce. The guy who killed his father is now the son of the guy who killed Bruce's parents with Mr. Fixx being revealed to have not actually killed Terry's dad. Terry is now regularly fighting Bruce's Rogues or Children of said Rogues or his own Rogues are revealed to be related to the OG Rogues or dealing with characters who are taking on the mantel of the OG Rogues. Terry's stories are turning into carbon copies of Bruce's stories and so on.

If you've read my other ideas you know that I have included some of Bruce's supporting cast into Terry's story like having Ellen Yin being Terry's love interest and Carrie Kelley being Terry's kid Sister and I do include Mr. Freeze as a regular character and Copperhead from Arkham Origins shows up as an antagonist alongside Lord Kobra from the comics. But those are the exception most of the Supporting cast and Rogues Gallery is still Terry's.

Terry's mom is given a MUCH bigger role then in the original series, Max is still here and her story is mostly unchanged, Nelson Nash is given an expanded role as is Blade and Chelsea with Blade being made into Carrie's love interest. Blight is the main antagonist throughout the series with his conflict with Terry being given real focus and Kobra is promoted to main threat for the second season instead of just being the focus for a two part episode.

But DC has been trying to turn Batman Beyond into just Batman Regular just with the names swapped out and I can't help but blame this twist on that because it removes a lot of what made Terry work and just turn him into Bruce.

[CharlesPhipps]

My opinion on the subject is that it's always better to work with existing continuity rather than override it even if it's something you'd never want to be the case. You wanted the opinion over whether Terry should be a redhead? Well, my opinion is no and he should be Bruce's son because retcon or not, it's a thing that creates a lot of interesting angles to explore.

I will also say I think you just blew past "Terry is a 30 year old man" in "Epilogue." The reason he's acting so very different is they wanted this to be Terry when he's furious, sullen, betrayed and questioning all of his choices up until this point. Epilogue is not the story of "Terry was always destined to be Batman because he's Bruce Wayne's son." Epilogue is the story that Terry became Batman because of his own choices despite the attempts to make him Batman by Waller.

It's also about saying that he's NOT a clone of Bruce (he's his biological son admittedly) but that the Phantasm refused to kill Terry's parents and unlike Bruce, Terry doesn't have to be alone.

[Thebestoftherest]

Charles not to be rude, but can you list some of those angles because other than the brief shock of the fact itself I can't think of any.