hammerofglass wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 9:14 pm
I mean, it is kinda hard to tell what falls under "it doesn't hold up" and what falls under "I'm an adult reading a book meant for eight year olds".
I hate that excuse. In fact, I absolutely loathe it. "It's for kids" is not an excuse to write shit.
Anyway, I also object to the age range that you think this is for when it is clearly YA.
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 6:32 amAs it was explained to me, "White Savior Activism" is where a college student or affluent individual hears about some culture and decides that they are oppressed then attempts to explain to said individual why they are.
There's also an element of class warfare which Rowling loves including, and why before she went down her twitter spiral, was a great part of why she was once so lauded as this Labour supporting leftie icon.
A very popular pastiche in UK comedy in the 90's when the first books were written was the spoiled young rich who doesn't have to work for a living, and so spends their time doing activism without understanding what they are doing making them inneffectual and/or annoying. If you recognise the trope, Hermionie is playing it to the hilt, and so Rowling expects you not to side with her.
Thing is she used the 's' word, and that's where she really fucked up, cause opposing that must be right, right? And that she's basically treating Hermionie's attempts as a joke comes off super weird and messed up to those unfamiilar to the trope. Add that making fun of activists in the 2020's hits much, much differently than it did in the 90's and you can see why people hate that plotline so much these days.
I think this is definitely about the most accurate way to explain it to a non-Brit of the period.
I do wonder maybe she should have change up, so it more like an Alfred Bruce Wayne dynamic. One is extremely loyal, and the other does show respect to them.
Maybe that Rowling problem she someone in power who is having a hard time accepting the world she grew up in no long exist.
hammerofglass wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 9:14 pm
I mean, it is kinda hard to tell what falls under "it doesn't hold up" and what falls under "I'm an adult reading a book meant for eight year olds".
I hate that excuse. In fact, I absolutely loathe it. "It's for kids" is not an excuse to write shit.
Anyway, I also object to the age range that you think this is for when it is clearly YA.
Ok then. It didn't age badly because it was never good. It's not terrible, it's just... fine. Left very little impression on me. I was twelve and above the target age range when the first one dropped, it wasn't something I grew up with. A lot of the fandom stuff people came up with was fun, though.
I did look at a few parent guides when I saw your comment and they suggested holding off on the last two books until age ten or even as late as twelve, so point to you there.
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 6:32 amAs it was explained to me, "White Savior Activism" is where a college student or affluent individual hears about some culture and decides that they are oppressed then attempts to explain to said individual why they are.
There's also an element of class warfare which Rowling loves including, and why before she went down her twitter spiral, was a great part of why she was once so lauded as this Labour supporting leftie icon.
A very popular pastiche in UK comedy in the 90's when the first books were written was the spoiled young rich who doesn't have to work for a living, and so spends their time doing activism without understanding what they are doing making them inneffectual and/or annoying. If you recognise the trope, Hermionie is playing it to the hilt, and so Rowling expects you not to side with her.
Thing is she used the 's' word, and that's where she really fucked up, cause opposing that must be right, right? And that she's basically treating Hermionie's attempts as a joke comes off super weird and messed up to those unfamiilar to the trope. Add that making fun of activists in the 2020's hits much, much differently than it did in the 90's and you can see why people hate that plotline so much these days.
That would make a little sense if Hermione was rich and lazy, which she isn't. I mean her parents are dentists, not millionaires.
As it is, we have Rowling doing the "Happy Slaves" trope, with Dobby explained as just a rare outlier, which is not a great look.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 3:05 pm
That would make a little sense if Hermione was rich and lazy, which she isn't. I mean her parents are dentists, not millionaires.
As it is, we have Rowling doing the "Happy Slaves" trope, with Dobby explained as just a rare outlier, which is not a great look.
Yeah if you believe House Elves are slaves then it's evil.
If you buy Rowling, thinking House Elves are slaves is racist.
So the question is--what do the House Elves think?
That part of the problem, if they are slaves it likely they did spend there entire life being told this is normal, so are they really happy, or doing the only thing they ever knew too do.
Like, can elves... quit? Can they? If not, slaves. They don't get any RIGHTS or respect, we never see a non slave elf BUT Dobby... and he's considered 'different' for not wanting to be a slave to the gang. Plus, let's pretend that this is okay.
It's not, but lets. The gang than proceed to play with the DEAD HEADS OF ELVES! Like, full on decorate it and treat it as ornaments! How is this NOT FUCKED UP?!
Science Fiction is a genre where anything can happen. Just make sure what happens is enjoyable for yourself and your audience.
Thebestoftherest wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 7:32 pm
That part of the problem, if they are slaves it likely they did spend there entire life being told this is normal, so are they really happy, or doing the only thing they ever knew too do.
Which is the really problematic sentiment in real life. Because if your argument that people are brainwashed because they don't see your point, you're falling into the White Savior narrative.
And does need to be called out.
"No, they just don't agree with you."
ANNNNDD I do this fully acknowledging that the House elves are NOT real and Rowling may just be a bad writer here.
Like I said, I don't think she wrote it very well even if she did want to call out RL activist racism.
Last edited by CharlesPhipps on Sun Mar 17, 2024 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Nobody700 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 7:43 pm
Like, can elves... quit? Can they? If not, slaves. They don't get any RIGHTS or respect, we never see a non slave elf BUT Dobby... and he's considered 'different' for not wanting to be a slave to the gang. Plus, let's pretend that this is okay.
Yeah, I think Rowlings answer to that is the fact House Elves are way more powerful than wizards. They can teleport where wizards cant and Lucius Malfoy, who is a powerful wizard, gets utterly floored by Dobby. The only thing that keeps them obedient is the fact they have severe taboos against being fired and are horribly ashamed if they've failed their duties.
Like seppuku levels of shame.
But as we see with Kreacher, they CAN betray their families at any time.
