Star Wars: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

[SabreMau]

And why didn't they maneuver the transports and cruiser so that the cruiser, with its active shielding, would be in between them and the cannon picking them off one by one, perhaps blocking some shots from getting through? I get that they weren't even expecting to be seen, due to some cloaking technology mentioned, but it seems like a cloak relying on a "this will fool them unless they look at it" premise.

[GloatingSwine]

The cruiser wouldn't have been able to block shots from all of the pursuing ships no matter where it was, because they were much more spread out, there would always be an angle where they could hit the transports that are pretty constrained in where they can go.

[Ordo]

Managed to catch the movie at last on Christmas Eve. Left the cinema feeling ambivalent because the visuals and soundtrack were top notch. However having ruminated on the story itself over the last few days I've found myself liking the movie less and less and now have to concede that The Last Jedi is a mess and now personally consider it the worst in the franchise taking into account it's terrible character writing, story and tone.

Everything I found wrong I could only possibly cover in one overly long snark laden review.

Looks like I was completely justified when I said I wouldn't invest any more effort in trying to figure out JJ's "Mysteries" than they had put into writing them. It looks like even that was setting the bar too high. I had minimal expectations and it still failed to reach them. At least we no-longer have to care.

Interestingly, I'm having the opposite reaction. I've seen it three times now and have caught things I missed each time, like how Rose capturing would-be deserters ties into Holdo not telling everyone the plan. I liked TFA more than all the Prequels and this movie, for me is better than that one. I wasn't too fond of JJ's mysteries and took great delight in seeing them exposed for the useless pieces of fan bait they were. I also loved seeing that the force relied on more than a bloodline. Ever since the Prequels I've noticed the fandom placing a LOT of emphasis on the power inherent in one's blood, that your lineage would determine your potential. Seeing a random woman from the middle of Nowhere rising to be the equal of the 'Legacy' Skywalker in power was highly satisfying too me. It gives the force something that was lost when Lucas made Anakin the child or prophecy.

I fully understand why this movie has been so divisive, but I love it and can't wait to see what Rian Johnson does when JJ's "Mysteries" aren't constraining him.

[Fixer]

Interestingly, I'm having the opposite reaction. I've seen it three times now and have caught things I missed each time, like how Rose capturing would-be deserters ties into Holdo not telling everyone the plan.

But people are deserting because their morale is shot, because they believe they have no hope.

So, the problem this resolves is not one that would have existed if Holdo was a baseline level competent commander who didn't let everyone think she was leading them to their slow and inevitable demise.

This is a bit like saying the fire you started at least set off the sprinkler system to help put out the fire. No bonus points for solving a problem you caused in the first place.

[GandALF]

Seeing a random woman from the middle of Nowhere rising to be the equal of the 'Legacy' Skywalker in power was highly satisfying too me. It gives the force something that was lost when Lucas made Anakin the child or prophecy.

Luke being important because he's the son of a Jedi was a thing long before any prophecy business. I think there was too much of an expectation for Rey to be the Jaina Solo to Kylo Ren's Darth Caedus, but even in the old EU there was never any real reason that it always had to be a Skywalker, its a monastic tradition not a royal line, Luke and Leia were just the most powerful Force-sensitives Yoda and Obi-Wan had access to. I think it was more to have a connection to the movie characters.

But people are deserting because their morale is shot, because they believe they have no hope.

So, the problem this resolves is not one that would have existed if Holdo was a baseline level competent commander who didn't let everyone think she was leading them to their slow and inevitable demise.

It's a military, it's what they signed up for. It doesn't matter what they believe, they're supposed to do as they're told, she didn't order anyone to gas civilians.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

It would be one thing if we were given a hint about a possible mole, or that Holdo is a megalomaniac. But there are no such hints, and the script comes out and tells us that Holdo is a good leader.

Actually....Rose mentions that she's busted 3 people trying to escape in pods. Since we know those people were taken to the brig for desertion...Holdo is likely worried that other people might try to run...and if they do...they could be captured and spill the details of her plan...so the less people that know what's going on the better.

I'll admit...more attention should've been brought to that...but it is there in the script.

That's an interesting angle, I hadn't thought of that one. Still, one way to stop people from running would be to give them a reason to not give up. Normally I wouldn't have a lot of sympathy for mutineers, and Poe obviously goes too far, but Holdo should make allowances when every one else in the movement has been destroyed.

It's not that I think that story thread isn't salvageable, BSG's 33 had a similar scenario and is one of the all-time great sci-fi episodes. A small handful of lines could solve a lot of the problems I'm having with this.

I think one of the reasons people are disliking TLJ is that it spends an awful lot of time tricking you into a perspective that turns out to be wrong.

That's part of it, but I think people care far more about the movie's subversive tone in general, from the jokes where they're expecting seriousness to the trite dismissal of Star Wars lore to the characterization of their old favorites. Top of the list is what was done to Luke Skywalker, followed maybe stuff like the Canto Bight plot that feels only tangentially related to Star Wars. I don't think this was the intention, but to long time fans it honestly feels like a mockery/parody at some points.

I don't think the Poe-Holdo story was tightly plotted, but I think people are nitpicking that story because the movie doesn't engender good will on the part of the audience. People will go out of their way to defend things like Han saying the Falcon made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs because they actually like the movie. Most movies, particularly sci-fi movies, are going to have holes to one degree or another, and The Last Jedi is definitely no exception. The difference here is that a huge segment of the Star Wars fanbase is not on the movie's side.

[Ordo]

I get that some people don't like how Luke was handled...but to me he just comes off like King David in the Bible. A man after God's own heart...who after being given everything and doing so many amazing things in the Lord's name....has a man killed so he can take said man's wife. Luke's mistake is nowhere near that bad in my mind...because at least Luke's actions were motivated out of an altruistic desire to protect the galaxy at large...and even then he stopped himself from going through with the action. I guess, to me, this movie reinforces the idea that the Darkside is ALWAYS going to tempt you. There will NEVER come a day or a time when you are completely immune to it's whispers. As a wise man once said "Constant Vigilance!"

[TGLS]

People will go out of their way to defend things like Han saying the Falcon made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs because they actually like the movie.

Interesting fact: that was originally supposed to be Han trying to impress Luke and Obi-wan with blatant misinformation.


I like the Holdo-Poe plot from a structural perspective; it's the obstructive admiral story turned such that the obstructive admiral is right. But from the actual in universe perspective, it falls apart.

Holdo didn't tell anyone anything, and people were trying to desert before falling to certain death, and Poe mutinied against her, because of incomplete information. If Holdo did explain what was happening, then the deserters would know what was going on when they deserted, and Poe would look more like a jerk if he went ahead with his plan.

However, the second option is really just an accelerated first option, because either way, the everyone fleeing is going to eventually know what the plan is. If an FO Agent was onboard, he'd just be waiting until he learned the what the plan was. If the crew didn't believe in the plan, they would be deserting while the transports left anyway.

[Admiral X]

Everything I found wrong I could only possibly cover in one overly long snark laden review.

[Ordo]

People will go out of their way to defend things like Han saying the Falcon made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs because they actually like the movie.

Interesting fact: that was originally supposed to be Han trying to impress Luke and Obi-wan with blatant misinformation.


I like the Holdo-Poe plot from a structural perspective; it's the obstructive admiral story turned such that the obstructive admiral is right. But from the actual in universe perspective, it falls apart.

Holdo didn't tell anyone anything, and people were trying to desert before falling to certain death, and Poe mutinied against her, because of incomplete information. If Holdo did explain what was happening, then the deserters would know what was going on when they deserted, and Poe would look more like a jerk if he went ahead with his plan.

However, the second option is really just an accelerated first option, because either way, the everyone fleeing is going to eventually know what the plan is. If an FO Agent was onboard, he'd just be waiting until he learned the what the plan was. If the crew didn't believe in the plan, they would be deserting while the transports left anyway.

I think you could make the argument that Holdo simply couldn't trust that people would stay even knowing there was a plan. All it takes if for ONE person to decide that they'd rather take their chances in an escape pod or stolen ship and her plan goes up in smoke. I mean Poe blabbed about a portion of the plan to Finn and the FO figured out what was going on from DJ. In fact it looks like the only people who even knew the Transports were being fueled were the bridge crew and I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that NONE of them were allowed out of Holdo's sight since she locked down the bridge. In fact if security had done it's job and Kept Poe OUT, he wouldn't have been in a position to blab anything.

I have friends in the military and they've told me some interesting stories about people (good intention ed ones even) failing OPSEC and giving away vital information. For example, if you know what day a Sailor is going to be in a specific port...you can probably make a good guess as to the schedule of their ship. Heck I believe the US Military had Soldiers, Sailors (etc) purge their facebook pages because the enemy was able to learn a lot by studying them. Hearing stories like that, and knowing the Resistance has only 400 people...I can't blame Holdo for disseminating information on a Need to know basis, and Poe didn't need to know.