Star Wars: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

[GloatingSwine]

- Rey's parents, again, so much build up, why throw it all away? I don't understand...

Do you remember Lost?

Lost was seven seasons of mystery boxes just like this. None of them had satisfactory contents because the contents of the box are not the point, the box being a mystery that nerds can theorise about on the internet forever with none of them ever being "wrong" because it's all so vague is the point.

It's what JJ Abrams does. He didn't care who Rey's parents were when he set up the mystery, he just wanted you to talk about it on the Internet.

Also, the point now with them being nobodies is that it opens up the Star Wars galaxy for new stories, the protagonists don't have to be the descendants of some great Jedi dynasty, they don't have to be living out some grand prophesied destiny. They can be anyone now.

- Poe's arc was messy, it started out fine with him clearly needing to learn to follow authority more and not blindly rely on his own judgement and ego, but it didn't really feel like he learned this. I mean, his mutiny is quelled, for the right reasons, but why didn't they just let him in on the secret plan to begin with? He's clearly a loyal member of the resistance, even if he is a hot-head who doesn't always follow orders.

Remember that when Poe finds out about the plan he goes through with his mutinty anyway. He clearly wasn't to be trusted in a plan which relied on OpSec and couldn't be trusted with the details of this plan because he's a hothead who would mutiny rather than save the Resistance. Hell when he finds out the first thing he does is blab the plan to an infiltration team about to go into enemy territory, people who not only do not need to know but specifically need to not know so they cannot give the plan away if captured. And that's just for the real world not one where the infiltration team is going into the lair of people who can actually read minds.

[SabreMau]

With the First Order it just feels like an idiot plot, why the hell didn't The New Republic do anything about these guys when they had the chance? Why didn't they stop them from building the Starkiller? Why should I feel any sympathy for this 'Resistance' if it's their own ignorance, apathy and laziness that got them into this mess?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Military_Disarmament_Act

They beat the Empire in that big battle that crashed the Star Destroyers into Jakku, declared victory, and then threw away 90% of their fleet because they apparently decided that what caused the Empire was the Old Republic having an army built up back in Attack of the Clones. Don't have an army -> galactic peace. The Resistance was just an unauthorized splinter that realized the First Order was going to be an eventual threat and decided to built up their own private army.

[GandALF]

- Rey's parents, again, so much build up, why throw it all away? I don't understand...

Do you remember Lost?

Lost was seven seasons of mystery boxes just like this. None of them had satisfactory contents because the contents of the box are not the point, the box being a mystery that nerds can theorise about on the internet forever with none of them ever being "wrong" because it's all so vague is the point.

It's what JJ Abrams does. He didn't care who Rey's parents were when he set up the mystery, he just wanted you to talk about it on the Internet.

The far more important factor is that she wants to be part of some dynasty and Kylo uses her fear of being a nobody to tempt her.

[SlackerinDeNile]

- Rey's parents, again, so much build up, why throw it all away? I don't understand...

Do you remember Lost?

Lost was seven seasons of mystery boxes just like this. None of them had satisfactory contents because the contents of the box are not the point, the box being a mystery that nerds can theorise about on the internet forever with none of them ever being "wrong" because it's all so vague is the point.

It's what JJ Abrams does. He didn't care who Rey's parents were when he set up the mystery, he just wanted you to talk about it on the Internet.

The far more important factor is that she wants to be part of some dynasty and Kylo uses her fear of being a nobody to tempt her.

Thanks for your responses guys, you make some very valid points, maybe I'm being critical of the film to the point of being downright ignorant. I don't mind Rey's parents being nobodies, but I felt a bit cheated that they kind of just threw away this plotline in order to seem clever.

In regards to Poe, you're right, maybe it was best to leave him out of the loop on that one, but if that's the case then why let him have access to the people and resources required to stage a mutiny in the first place?

SabreMau, that's interesting, although that seems to be part of the Expanded Universe. Plus, it just comes across as a contrived excuse for how Disney can rehash the conflict of the Original Trilogy.

[GloatingSwine]

They didn't throw the plotline away though.

They used it to develop the character. When Rey goes into the dark side cave she just sees reflected images of herself when she's looking for "answers" to who her parents are, because what's keeping her from the truth is her self deception.

[ORCACommander]

I am not sure why people do not remember that right when carrie died they said they could not change TLJ because the entire movie had been shot at that point and everyone thought that ordering reshoots this late into the process would be disrespectful (the cynic in me says that it would blow the budget and set the movie back by 6 or more months)
Also you can survive the vacuum of space for a short time. she was out there for at most 5 minutes. space is not cold, its a vacuum, that makes it an insulator. if she did not fight the decompression then her lungs should be fine. I'll admit her nto being peppered with shrapnel is a bit of a stretch but she was shown as being far from the explosion.

RTOJ luke says leia has the force, in the 30 or 40 years between movies it should be a given that luke taught her some basics even if she normally would choose not to use her gifts.

I get it slack, You are the type of person who doesn't like it when the hero fails and that is a big part of the premise of the movie, What happens when hereo's try their stupid shit and it backfires on them

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Also you can survive the vacuum of space for a short time. she was out there for at most 5 minutes. space is not cold, its a vacuum, that makes it an insulator. if she did not fight the decompression then her lungs should be fine. I'll admit her nto being peppered with shrapnel is a bit of a stretch but she was shown as being far from the explosion.

RTOJ luke says leia has the force, in the 30 or 40 years between movies it should be a given that luke taught her some basics even if she normally would choose not to use her gifts.

I wouldn't say somehow regaining consciousness and propelling herself through space is part of the basics. It looked ridiculous and would have strained credulity if anyone did it, let alone someone who has never used the force in a outward/physical way.

Not to mention that they opened an airlock to space to get her out. Sure, you can say they erected a force field first if you want, but the whole thing is just lazy.

I would have had far less problem with it even if she had erected some sort of force shield, held the air in the room long enough to get out, or accomplished some other more "cerebral" force use which had always been her style up to that point..

In hindsight, Holdo's role would have been almost perfect for Leia, except that fans might have a harder time forgiving Poe's insubordinate actions and the audience wouldn't be tricked into thinking that Leia was wrong, or a traitor, as they might be with Holdo. I don't blame them for that one given Carrie Fisher's death. There's not only the question of being respectful, but you would end up with no interaction at all between the OT trio.

SabreMau, that's interesting, although that seems to be part of the Expanded Universe. Plus, it just comes across as a contrived excuse for how Disney can rehash the conflict of the Original Trilogy.

You're right, and unless I'm mistaken that contrived excuse came from the EU after the damage was done and the universe was reset to status quo without explanation. It's like I was saying earlier- the movies don't bother to lay out any of this stuff, so it's left to fans and EU writers after the fact to try to cover for the holes in the movie. I don't think that explanation makes sense, but at least it's a try.

One of my least favorite things about the sequel trilogy is the absence of any real worldbuilding. JJ Abrams reset things to status quo even when it made no sense to do so, but even so there was a chance to build something off of that. Instead Johnson opted for a deconstruction. The Last Jedi's message to fans is to move on, and yet that's exactly what Disney doesn't do because they want to cash in on nostalgia and the old iconic scenarios and production.

If you like the movie, you might be willing to do that. Many didn't like it, so the holes look pretty gaping. Even if you can construct an explanation of how a mutiny might happen, or why it makes sense for Leia to be able to fly in space, or any of the other problems- all of that is indicative of sloppy writing in my opinion.

[SlackerinDeNile]

I get it slack, You are the type of person who doesn't like it when the hero fails and that is a big part of the premise of the movie, What happens when heroes try their stupid shit and it backfires on them

You misunderstand, I don't mind when the heroes fail or the situation seems grim as long as there is a reasonably level of hope. Do you know what 'darkness-induced-audience-apathy' is? If the heroes are fighting against increasingly insurmountable odds their battle just becomes more and more pointless, if they end up winning via a total Deus Ex Machina then the story feels both ridiculous and pointless. Battlestar Galactica did this kind of thing well enough even if it was edgy to the point of being a bit silly, the sight of the rag tag fleet literally running away from the big bad fleet for most of this film made me cringe a little bit, it become tiresome. Empire Strikes Back ended on a pretty grim note with the heroes losing one of their own, Lando losing his entire mining colony and a potentially dark and violent future for our main protagonist Luke and in Return of the Jedi, had the rebels lost, they would have almost all of their fleets, they had to bank their entire forces on defeating the Death Star II and the Emperor. Both these films still had hope spots, the characters clearly still had something to fall back on.
Here the failures seem far too contrived, they all seem to be set up in order to forcibly and fully recreate the rebellion from the original trilogy.

Imagine if in the prequels the separatists and the trade federation had a military three or four times bigger than the might of the Republic. Wouldn't that be quite ridiculous? Lets go further and imagine that the Republic barely even has any military forces, they don't even bother buying an army of clones. Wouldn't that be silly and pointless? Why did the other Resistance cells across the galaxy lose in this film? It's never clarified exactly how powerful and expansive The First Order is, they're not called an Empire, a Confederation, a Union or any form of government, which lead me to believe in TFA that they were just very well funded and well equipped terrorists...

[ORCACommander]

maybe. i do agree the fleeing ship just had no gravitas to it what so ever. there should of been escalating levels of damage or SAR efforts. That would of been better motive for POE. Him leading SAR teams into the damaged areas convinced he can save everyone still trapped, if only he can buy enough time and then holdo's plan would be more like her cutting their losses.

personally i love the deconstruction, but the deconstruction probly would of been better handled as the first film. the first film left a lot of craters for number 2 to fill in and Rian was not real interested in pandering to JJ's set up. So i think we are somewhat in agreement on that TFA hurts this movie more than than this movie hurts itself

[SlackerinDeNile]

One of my least favorite things about the sequel trilogy is the absence of any real worldbuilding. JJ Abrams reset things to status quo even when it made no sense to do so, but even so there was a chance to build something off of that. Instead Johnson opted for a deconstruction. The Last Jedi's message to fans is to move on, and yet that's exactly what Disney doesn't do because they want to cash in on nostalgia and the old iconic scenarios and production.

If you like the movie, you might be willing to do that. Many didn't like it, so the holes look pretty gaping. Even if you can construct an explanation of how a mutiny might happen, or why it makes sense for Leia to be able to fly in space, or any of the other problems- all of that is indicative of sloppy writing in my opinion.

YES! THANK YOU! The prequels were a gold-mine of world building. It was never subtle about it and it often felt quite fake and cartoonish, but at least they were trying, at least they were making use of new techniques and new cinematic technology. Rian Johnson and the other people who helped write and direct this thing (because the rewrites have to be obvious by now) must have thought they were being clever about this stuff, but it comes across as pandering and hypocritical.

I WANTED to love this film, I really did, I was really looking forward to it up until the reviews from hardcore fans came in. They feel similarly to how I do about it.

maybe. i do agree the fleeing ship just had no gravitas to it what so ever. there should of been escalating levels of damage or SAR efforts. That would of been better motive for POE. Him leading SAR teams into the damaged areas convinced he can save everyone still trapped, if only he can buy enough time and then holdo's plan would be more like her cutting their losses.

personally i love the deconstruction, but the deconstruction probly would of been better handled as the first film. the first film left a lot of craters for number 2 to fill in and Rian was not real interested in pandering to JJ's set up. So i think we are somewhat in agreement on that TFA hurts this movie more than than this movie hurts itself

No, I never said or implied that. TFA did not 'hurt' this film or the rest of the franchise in any way (well, maybe it arguably did but I'll have to get into that another time), I liked the sequel hooks from that film. This film hurt itself, the people who wrote and directed it hurt it. I like deconstruction when it's done well and when it isn't shoved down our throats, this felt like it was confused on whether or not it actually wanted to deconstruct any aspect of the Star Wars universe, but it doesn't feel like anything is ultimately learned. Luke dies trying to save the Rebellion and Rey 'the last Jedi', the Jedi books are shown to be in the Millenium Falcon at the end, meaning that the order will no doubt come back in a similar form in the future. Kylo goes on to be yet another evil Sith lord and will probably take on an apprentice or two, providing this film hasn't thrown the Knights of Ren out some space window. Why should they bother trying to be cerebral about any of it if they're not going to be consistent and have the characters do or learn something revolutionary?