Tears of the Prophets

[McAvoy]

See, in the Star Trek universe, blowing up a planet is a big deal. Glassing a planet not so much, but actually reducing one to rubble is a very rare ability. And yet thanks to the Genesis torpedo and the red matter (which we can thank Abrams for introducing such an absurd concept into the Prime universe) the Federation has the capability to turn every starship and even scout ship into a death star.

Really, though... so what? We have the ability to melt the Earth's crust with the nuclear weapons we have now. Kirk's Enterprise was more than capable of destroying all life on a planet if it wanted to... there's gotta be a point at which it doesn't matter after that. Once you've reduced a planet to a useless ball of magma, what military application does it serve to destroy it even more other than just showing off?

TBH, I have the same question about the nuclear arms race in the real world. "Oh no, we only have enough missiles to destroy the world 10 times over, and the other side has enough to do it 11 times over! We've gotta catch up!" Like... why?

The only thing that made the Genesis Torpedo stand out from the other weapons that every race has in ST is the fact that it could conceivably be used for actually constructive purposes.

Mathematically we can actually figure out how powerful a photon torpedo really is. Non cannon materials like the TNG Technical manual states the photon torpedo has having 1500 grams of antimatter and matter would equate to 63 megatons.

Though evidence either from TOS or TNG or DS9 or VOY shows this be all over the place. Like STV, when the Enterprise fired a torpedo at 'God' it had the explosive firepower of an artillery shell. Just dropping the torpedo itself from orbit would have been bigger. Or the photon torpedo explosion we saw in Skin of Evil to destroy Big Oil Monster, was viewed to be about 500 megatons.

Or photon torpedo damage to ships nowhere looks like to be in the megaton or even kiloton range. Nevermind phasers which would be maybe a tenth as powerful if we assume the photon torpedo is meant for maximum damage and phasers are used as precision weapons.

Of course the PT can have variable yields. When we talk about matter and antimatter we do it in it's weight and not density. Maybe, photon torpedoes yields can be increased by increasing the density of antimatter, so they could have a yield ten times more powerful or more.

[Durandal_1707]

See, in the Star Trek universe, blowing up a planet is a big deal. Glassing a planet not so much, but actually reducing one to rubble is a very rare ability. And yet thanks to the Genesis torpedo and the red matter (which we can thank Abrams for introducing such an absurd concept into the Prime universe) the Federation has the capability to turn every starship and even scout ship into a death star.

Really, though... so what? We have the ability to melt the Earth's crust with the nuclear weapons we have now. Kirk's Enterprise was more than capable of destroying all life on a planet if it wanted to... there's gotta be a point at which it doesn't matter after that. Once you've reduced a planet to a useless ball of magma, what military application does it serve to destroy it even more other than just showing off?

TBH, I have the same question about the nuclear arms race in the real world. "Oh no, we only have enough missiles to destroy the world 10 times over, and the other side has enough to do it 11 times over! We've gotta catch up!" Like... why?

The only thing that made the Genesis Torpedo stand out from the other weapons that every race has in ST is the fact that it could conceivably be used for actually constructive purposes.

Mathematically we can actually figure out how powerful a photon torpedo really is. Non cannon materials like the TNG Technical manual states the photon torpedo has having 1500 grams of antimatter and matter would equate to 63 megatons.

Though evidence either from TOS or TNG or DS9 or VOY shows this be all over the place. Like STV, when the Enterprise fired a torpedo at 'God' it had the explosive firepower of an artillery shell. Just dropping the torpedo itself from orbit would have been bigger. Or the photon torpedo explosion we saw in Skin of Evil to destroy Big Oil Monster, was viewed to be about 500 megatons.

Or photon torpedo damage to ships nowhere looks like to be in the megaton or even kiloton range. Nevermind phasers which would be maybe a tenth as powerful if we assume the photon torpedo is meant for maximum damage and phasers are used as precision weapons.

Of course the PT can have variable yields. When we talk about matter and antimatter we do it in it's weight and not density. Maybe, photon torpedoes yields can be increased by increasing the density of antimatter, so they could have a yield ten times more powerful or more.

I mean, you can do these nitpicky things all you want, but at the end of the day it's established that the Enterprise is able to destroy a planet's surface from the episode with General Order 24 in it. And my point stands that once you do that, there's really no point doing further damage; the planet's already completely ruined.

All this, of course, is setting aside the fact that Starfleet wouldn't really want to be in the business of doing this sort of thing in the first place.

[McAvoy]

See, in the Star Trek universe, blowing up a planet is a big deal. Glassing a planet not so much, but actually reducing one to rubble is a very rare ability. And yet thanks to the Genesis torpedo and the red matter (which we can thank Abrams for introducing such an absurd concept into the Prime universe) the Federation has the capability to turn every starship and even scout ship into a death star.

Really, though... so what? We have the ability to melt the Earth's crust with the nuclear weapons we have now. Kirk's Enterprise was more than capable of destroying all life on a planet if it wanted to... there's gotta be a point at which it doesn't matter after that. Once you've reduced a planet to a useless ball of magma, what military application does it serve to destroy it even more other than just showing off?

TBH, I have the same question about the nuclear arms race in the real world. "Oh no, we only have enough missiles to destroy the world 10 times over, and the other side has enough to do it 11 times over! We've gotta catch up!" Like... why?

The only thing that made the Genesis Torpedo stand out from the other weapons that every race has in ST is the fact that it could conceivably be used for actually constructive purposes.

Mathematically we can actually figure out how powerful a photon torpedo really is. Non cannon materials like the TNG Technical manual states the photon torpedo has having 1500 grams of antimatter and matter would equate to 63 megatons.

Though evidence either from TOS or TNG or DS9 or VOY shows this be all over the place. Like STV, when the Enterprise fired a torpedo at 'God' it had the explosive firepower of an artillery shell. Just dropping the torpedo itself from orbit would have been bigger. Or the photon torpedo explosion we saw in Skin of Evil to destroy Big Oil Monster, was viewed to be about 500 megatons.

Or photon torpedo damage to ships nowhere looks like to be in the megaton or even kiloton range. Nevermind phasers which would be maybe a tenth as powerful if we assume the photon torpedo is meant for maximum damage and phasers are used as precision weapons.

Of course the PT can have variable yields. When we talk about matter and antimatter we do it in it's weight and not density. Maybe, photon torpedoes yields can be increased by increasing the density of antimatter, so they could have a yield ten times more powerful or more.

I mean, you can do these nitpicky things all you want, but at the end of the day it's established that the Enterprise is able to destroy a planet's surface from the episode with General Order 24 in it. And my point stands that once you do that, there's really no point doing further damage; the planet's already completely ruined.

All this, of course, is setting aside the fact that Starfleet wouldn't really want to be in the business of doing this sort of thing in the first place.

Well TOS really did have a few episodes that really did give you an idea the Enterprise could do that. It's only when you get past that series, that they seem to dial back that sort of capability. To glass a planet.

I mean I do agree, the moment you make the surface molten anything past that is just extra work. You don't even have to make it molten, just hazardous to life.

Like imagine if Enterprise launched well placed torpedoes into super volcanos and left them erupt. Make the planet useless for a decade or more.

[clearspira]

See, in the Star Trek universe, blowing up a planet is a big deal. Glassing a planet not so much, but actually reducing one to rubble is a very rare ability. And yet thanks to the Genesis torpedo and the red matter (which we can thank Abrams for introducing such an absurd concept into the Prime universe) the Federation has the capability to turn every starship and even scout ship into a death star.

Really, though... so what? We have the ability to melt the Earth's crust with the nuclear weapons we have now. Kirk's Enterprise was more than capable of destroying all life on a planet if it wanted to... there's gotta be a point at which it doesn't matter after that. Once you've reduced a planet to a useless ball of magma, what military application does it serve to destroy it even more other than just showing off?

TBH, I have the same question about the nuclear arms race in the real world. "Oh no, we only have enough missiles to destroy the world 10 times over, and the other side has enough to do it 11 times over! We've gotta catch up!" Like... why?

The only thing that made the Genesis Torpedo stand out from the other weapons that every race has in ST is the fact that it could conceivably be used for actually constructive purposes.

You make very good points, I agree.

The Genesis torpedo does have the advantage of time to kill and area or effect on its side however. You do not actually need to launch the Genesis device. Just set it off in your cargo bay. And it apparantly has the range of an entire nebula. Trying to glass a planet under normal circumstances would require you to take their navy out first.

Red matter is the real op here though. The ability to create black holes effectively makes it a solar system level weapon. And it can be held within a single shuttlecraft.

I never watched Picard so I do not know if they ever referenced the stuff again or if they just decided to ignore what Abrams did but this puts the Federation at the same level of the planet killer or V'Ger.

[Durandal_1707]

They were already able to destroy star systems too, via a device that could be stored on a piddly little probe. This was the center of the entire plot of Star Trek: Generations.

As for speed of destroying a planet, inhabited planets are remarkably fragile—after all, the thing that killed the non-avian dinosaurs and the overwhelming majority of life on Earth was nothing but a big dumb rock. And the Federation can do worse than that rock. Check out one of those videos sometime about what would happen if something like a basketball were to hit the earth while traveling at relativistic speeds. Then consider that the Federation can make the basketball 1) bigger and 2) made of antimatter. The planet's doomed before they will even know what's going on. There might be something left, but it sure won't be inhabitable or useful to anyone.

The Star Trek universe is very much influenced by our real world post the discovery of nuclear weapons. Every major nation absolutely has the ability to completely end us all, and our best hope for not having that happen is to cooperate with each other.

[Riedquat]

The Star Trek universe is very much influenced by our real world post the discovery of nuclear weapons. Every major nation absolutely has the ability to completely end us all, and our best hope for not having that happen is to cooperate with each other.

And the problem is there's always someone like Putin. But with the Federation, and various empires and so on in Trek all the eggs aren't in one basket so it's actually rather harder to wipe out everyone.

[Nobody700]

They were already able to destroy star systems too, via a device that could be stored on a piddly little probe. This was the center of the entire plot of Star Trek: Generations.

As for speed of destroying a planet, inhabited planets are remarkably fragile—after all, the thing that killed the non-avian dinosaurs and the overwhelming majority of life on Earth was nothing but a big dumb rock. And the Federation can do worse than that rock. Check out one of those videos sometime about what would happen if something like a basketball were to hit the earth while traveling at relativistic speeds. Then consider that the Federation can make the basketball 1) bigger and 2) made of antimatter. The planet's doomed before they will even know what's going on. There might be something left, but it sure won't be inhabitable or useful to anyone.

The Star Trek universe is very much influenced by our real world post the discovery of nuclear weapons. Every major nation absolutely has the ability to completely end us all, and our best hope for not having that happen is to cooperate with each other.

Too be fair, kinetic energy is a bitch. A small piece of metal with enough force can tear apart a human skull like it wasn't even there.

Now Genesis... I think Genesis was as SCARY as it was not because it could wipe out a planet, but do so... and alter it to what you want. Need a planet to be a methane planet? Here ya go. Farm planet? Genesis, Baby. Who needs god when Genesis can turn Mustafar into Naboo! The Red Matter is no question more powerful, but for some reason it needs to hit the core of a planet. Who knows why, it just does. Genesis? Fire that baby and a planet is yours, no questions! Glass a planet and what do you have? Less land and resources and a lot of resources wasted. But Genesis? One shot, you win. Entire civilizations would CRUMBLE if you have a single one, no less a dozen... PER SHIP. No wonder the Klingons in 3 were shitting themselves, the Federation could Sisko the Alpha Quadrant! Oh, every planet is fine, except we decided to make an Anti Klingon chemical in it!

[McAvoy]

Which is why we don't really see any sort of the technology involved in creating Genesis in the 24th century. I mean the technology that created that cave in the movie could have been adapted to terraform on a smaller and longer scale. But we don't really see that.

Its locked up in the deepest parts of Federation computer technology located somewhere that is classified.

Anyway, the ability for a starship to destroy planets doesn't really reflect where you are in a war with starship where the number of these starships actually matter. Or just the ability to field a fleet that can cover its territory in case of emergencies or even scientific reasons in a reasonable amount of time.