Lower Decks season 5

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I'm with CharlesPhipps on this. They just kinda speedran the overthrow of capitalism when they joined the Federation.

[Nobody700]

Eh, I see this as just a funny version of how this would happen, given how blase everyone is that their whole system and way of life is dead and they give away cars to people and how the rich assholes are fighting for something they will never have again and lose it all and more based on how dumb they are.

Now i'd love a SERIOUS take on this, but Lower Decks is a comedy first.

[Nealithi]

The fact the civilian ship came INTO a battle, cloaked and than decloaked... honestly, who knows what it was doing there. Theirs a fan theory that the Federation only did this to throw Worf under the bus so the Klingons could come back as an ally. I don't agree, but like... Sisko comes off super weird in his rant to Worf at the end, and I LOVE Sisko, he's awesome and one of the best written characters in Trek. But I refuse to believe HE'D ever say that, after shit he did at THAT point. Picard, and even Kirk, I can buy. But Sisko? No way.

I kinda think Sisko's talking to Worf was less a don't shoot civilians. And more, don't be so predictable that you can be setup so easily. The klingons had deliberately made an attack pattern then sent in the 'innocent' ship knowing Worf would spot the pattern and shoot.

And their scam was so patently transparent that it ought to have been laughed out of court in a couple minutes. The only way it could have been more obvious is if the Klingon lawyer walked in carrying a neon sign with FALSE FLAG OPERATION emblazoned on it. I mean sensor data alone would've made it clear that it wasn't a civilian vessel.

I mean okay I get what the episode was trying to do and it did have good moments, but I don't think it set up the conflict of the story terribly well.

Wait. He wasn't carrying the sign?
In a more serious vein. Jag on Trek seems to have one setting. Punishment. Not guilt nor innocence, we intend someone to be punished and be harsh about it. Kinda a constant like Admiral pips come with insanity kool aid.
The klingons setup a false flag and everyone could see it. But the letter of the LAW said the jag had to put the guilty on trial. And as usual start at guilt. Heck as fast as the trials happen I think the jag corps is bored.

The previous examples. Kirk? First off the Prime Directive was a rule on a piece of paper that could be bypassed for the greater good. Not dogma at the time. Then, what is his better move? A foreign power was playing god. Kirk was not happy about what he had to do. But he armed the other side in an attempt to rebalance the scales after cultural contamination was thrown out the window.

Sisko on the other hand, everyone was against his orders. But it could be argued he also just rebalanced the scales someone else upset. The maquis made a cardassian world uninhabitable to cardassians, but humans would be fine. So Sisko did the reverse. Which also had the benefit of moving the borders a little.

Sisko playing guerrilla on DS9? The Star Fleet modified station while some members of the Bajoran command wanted them to stay? And in the end it showed the whole thing had been engineered to get the Federation out so Cardassia could retake Bajor and the wormhole? They took one look at that and said, "Medal or court martial. Eh they balance out."

I should clarify I am zero moral judging what they did, it's just these are MASSIVE violations.

Kirk gave a pre warp society guns when they didn't have the tech level for it. That's like, one of the most blatant breakings of the prime directive PERIOD. Like it's not 'Make a nazi 4th reich' but its WAY more than got mistaken as one of their gods. I ain't saying Kirk was right or wrong for the move, just the fact he's still a Captain after the move is insane.
The only reason I think Sisko wasn't arrested for the move by his crew is cause the poison takes a LONG time fo effect to happen. It's still a fucked move, and while I get where Sisko came from, as an admiral I think I'd want this man arrested or at least fired for gassing a planet, even if it was harmless.
The station fighting, I will stand on while the most moral move, is the MOST blatant rule breaking. He was ordered to leave, and to NOT stay... and he ignored the command. Again, I'm ZERO ethical blaming, just this was an outright order and he refused it. But that's more my beef with the Bajor trilogy actually being really shit and not good.

The problem is, theirs easily a dozen other moves I can assign they shoulda gotten punished for, but it's Worf who gets the court martial, or Paris the solitary confiment when Worf did NOTHING wrong in my eyes, and while Tom did do something command wise wrong and I woulda punished him as captain... even I balked at how badly he got treated. When Janeway does this shit ALL the time, it's laughable she dresses down Paris as hard as she does when this is the same woman who joined like three planet rebellions for NO reason beyond it fit her whim. Punishment in Trek is like the ones on the Justice planet. Arbitery, over the top, and shifts fast.

Thing is the moral judgment is part of the decision. Imagine there is a ship full of sick and dying people. Orders: Not your mission, deliver the gaudy crystals to the Ferengi instead. But you stop and cure the ship of people then carry on. Admirals will be pissed, but the public opinion will stay their hands.
Real world example: The Candy Bomber. During the Berlin Airlift one pilot was dropping candy out his plane on hand made parachutes for the children of Berlin. His commanding officers ordered him to stop. Just deliver the food. He kept doing it, but before they could court martial him for it. Word got out and it was a popular idea. So they instead expanded the operation.

I do not go into Voyager because it felt hard to follow the characters. Chuck explaining things and learning how little the writers seemed to care about characterization got me to understand my misgivings. Which means Janeway is insane and the captain of the Bounty would go, 'pull it back a bit'.

Kirk's solution was both political and moral. He couldn't do nothing after someone outside the Federation screwed things up. They would have let him off because no plan for that was around and no one had thought of the scenario before.
Sisko's solution. Honestly this one only makes sense if you recall that they took the chase from him. Another ship got badly damaged and the materials in question stolen in the first place. Going by the book against a terrorist that knew Starfleet's playbook was going to get people killed and make war nastier. Sisko ended the threat and Starfleet got to sweep the guy that was embarrassing them under the rug.
The resolution with the Bajorans would be two fold. He is a local religious figure and we value these people right now. And the local government does not want to press charges because of the manipulation he uncovered. If there had been no manipulation or they did not find it in time. I think Sisko would be allowed to die in the crossfire, and a reminder to obey orders to other commanders from Starfleet.

[clearspira]

The British Empire proved very, very successfully what happens when an army with guns goes up against an army without guns.

Kirk's decision to give guns to his friend when the other side already has been given guns is something that I have no problem with. The damage is already done in that the Klingons have already taught these childlike peaceful aliens ways of war - the only answer at this point is to put a sticking plaster over the wound.

There is also a very important note to be addressed here: Kirk counters the flintlock rifles of the opposing side by giving away identical flintlock rifles to his side. It is a straight 1-for-1 swap. The power balance is theoretically restored. The key strategy at this point is to now kill or capture the Klingon agent so that he doesn't artificially continue the arms race.

''A Private Little War'' is an incredibly complex and satisfying story of which few other PD episodes ever were. It is also the episode that convinces me that the PD is both essential and that TOS had the best grasp of what it should be.

I am of the opinion that Kirk and Spock would have been standing right alongside Worf's brother. I am also of the opinion that they would have joined Picard in defending the Ba'ku. Kirk is just as much of an idealist as to how the Federation should be treating others as Picard is.

[CharlesPhipps]

They wanted to revisit that episode in TNG with Captain Kirk playing the role of the de-aging Admiral. In their version, it would have triggered generations of war. Clearly, the superior moral option would be to let the locals get slaughtered and be conquered in the name of the Prime Directive.

Which is such a bullshit idea.

Seriously, me, Nealithi, and Clearspira agree. That's impressive.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

With all due repsect, fuck the Ba'ku and their elven ways.

[CharlesPhipps]

With all due repsect, fuck the Ba'ku and their elven ways.

Star Trek did an episode about not engaging in ejection of indigenous peoples.

In that episode, they used actual native people and not white folk who actually found a planet by accident.

[clearspira]

With all due repsect, fuck the Ba'ku and their elven ways.

Star Trek did an episode about not engaging in ejection of indigenous peoples.

In that episode, they used actual native people and not white folk who actually found a planet by accident.

Insurrection could have been a great story if it focused on this a little bit more tbh.

The Ba'Ku have no rightful claim to the planet... but I do not see how the Federation does either. After all, the question does need to be asked as to how and why this planet originally found itself within Federation space when the Federation is a power that governs by the mutual consent of its members. It does not typically acquire land through conquest. And yet they must have annexed the Briar Patch after the Ba'ku arrived there which muddies things considerably.

Plus the whole situation is also made needlessly complicated by the fact that the So'na is manufacturing Ketracel White durung the Dominion War. That was a detail that the scriptwriters should not have put in there and Worf especially should have had something to say on this matter.

It is a grey on grey conflict but the narrative never treats it as such.

[Nealithi]

With all due repsect, fuck the Ba'ku and their elven ways.

Star Trek did an episode about not engaging in ejection of indigenous peoples.

In that episode, they used actual native people and not white folk who actually found a planet by accident.

Insurrection could have been a great story if it focused on this a little bit more tbh.

The Ba'Ku have no rightful claim to the planet... but I do not see how the Federation does either. After all, the question does need to be asked as to how and why this planet originally found itself within Federation space when the Federation is a power that governs by the mutual consent of its members. It does not typically acquire land through conquest. And yet they must have annexed the Briar Patch after the Ba'ku arrived there which muddies things considerably.

Plus the whole situation is also made needlessly complicated by the fact that the So'na is manufacturing Ketracel White durung the Dominion War. That was a detail that the scriptwriters should not have put in there and Worf especially should have had something to say on this matter.

It is a grey on grey conflict but the narrative never treats it as such.

I disagree on the Ba'ku not having a right to a planet they colonized before the Federation got to that area. If they have no rights then no one has rights beyond their homeworld. So the klingons can take Mars and no one can dispute it since it is merely a colony.

My biggest gripe (And this gripe is what brought me to SFDebris in the first place) is the stupidity of the collector.
You have a resource being generated by a stellar phenomenon. You do not understand the phenomenon. You do not understand the technology to collect the particles. How do you know it will even work? You will be blowing up the fountain of youth to hope to collect the mist and use it elsewhere. Maybe.

And the in movie arguments. "They have something we want, eff them to death!" The they were not meant to be immortal. Oh but you are?

Sorry the cake needed to rise a bit more.

[TGLS]

I recall reading Piller's unpublished book on the process of Insurrection, Fade In. I think perhaps the most telling thing about it is how Piller lacks a sense of scale. In one version of the script, at the end, Quark shows up because he thinks it would be a great idea to open a health spa there. The Enterprise crew scoff at him and lead him off. I feel like someone read that, and realized planets are big. Quark could open a health spa and the Ba'Ku would never know. It had to be removed otherwise people would realize that the Ba'Ku are the real dicks here.