Star Wars: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

[Fixer]

The Force has never been the sole purview of the Jedi and the Sith. There have been alternate force using factions and schools which still exist in the Star Wars canon.
The Witches of Dathomir, and the Inquisition both use the dark side without Sith teachings.

Unfortunately The Last Jedi has destroyed a lot of what made the Force unique and special. Whereas before channelling the force required discipline and training, now The Rey can summon it at will because she's DM's rival character to Kylo which means she's always on an equal level. This handily explains how she had spare skill points to dump into swimming despite being raised on a desert planet.

What's the temptation of the Dark Side if you accept it twice without resistance and nothing happens? What's the point of the quick and easy path if the path you're already on is so quick and easy you can match a Jedi Master with hundreds of years of experience by being promised three lessons and getting half of one?

The Force has essentially been degraded to a generic superpower which is as powerful and or dangerous as the plot requires.

[Ordo]

The Force has never been the sole purview of the Jedi and the Sith. There have been alternate force using factions and schools which still exist in the Star Wars canon.

The Witches of Dathomir, and the Inquisition both use the dark side without Sith teachings.

None of this showed up in the films. It's always been Sith/Jedi until now. It's nice that the EU could mention such things but until it shows up in official films it's basically fanfiction.

Unfortunately The Last Jedi has destroyed a lot of what made the Force unique and special. Whereas before channelling the force required discipline and training, now The Rey can summon it at will because she's DM's rival character to Kylo which means she's always on an equal level. This handily explains how she had spare skill points to dump into swimming despite being raised on a desert planet.

I feel differently. For one, Rey was in Kylo's head after TFA, and it's after that action where she starts doing things like using the force to manipulate minds. I'd be willing to argue she got more than just an insight into his fears at that moment. As for lifting rocks, she doesn't have the same issues that Luke did when he arrived on Dagobah, and Luke shows her how to connect in such a fashion that she's able to lift the pebbles around her. However, all of that is for naught vs Snoke who slaps her around like the silly child she is when she confronts him. To be fair both she and Kylo have a LONG way to go before they ever reach the proficiency of their respective masters.

What's the temptation of the Dark Side if you accept it twice without resistance and nothing happens?

This is not a video game, you are not locked into the light or the dark side by any one decision. Darth Vader, even after everything he'd done in his life turned away from the Darkside at the very end. Rey...went to the dark during her vision...tempted by knowledge of her parents...but she didn't actually DO anything evil. No one was harmed by her actions, but it did show where she was vulnerable....which Kylo Ren later used to tempt her to his side when she was at her weakest...when she was shown to still have a long way to go in her training.

Even Luke's mistake shows that the Dark Side never stops tempting people. It's always there. To borrow from Dragon Age "Simple killing is a warrior's job. The real dangers of [the Force] are preconceptions... careless trust... pride. Keep your wits about you, [Jedi]. True tests... never end."

Luke, to me, in this film, is Like King David in the Bible...a man who has done great things...but later in life makes a mistakes you'd think would never even cross his mind...and suffers for it along with the people he served.

What's the point of the quick and easy path if the path you're already on is so quick and easy you can match a Jedi Master with hundreds of years of experience by being promised three lessons and getting half of one?

Okay, at no point did she match Luke. When they fought, Luke disarmed her and tossed her weapon aside. It was only when she pulled a lightsaber that he backed down...and you know what...he did the right thing. This wasn't Rey showing she was his equal, this was a master De-esclating a situation by showing he wasn't going to fight. He got her to calm down which was far more important than 'Winning' a fight. This is shown not only by Snoke throwing her around like a rag doll, and then revealing the 'Force Link' across planets was his creation, but by Luke projecting himself from across the galaxy to stall Kylo Ren.

The Force has essentially been degraded to a generic superpower which is as powerful and or dangerous as the plot requires.

Honestly, I think just the opposite. The force, as seen after the Prequels, was a generic super power...like Rey said to Luke in TLJ "It's a power Jedi have to lift rocks and manipulate minds" and I'd argue she was speaking as most in the general audience would at that point. It was something you were granted by a quirk of genetics, and that you could use to manipulate the world and the people around you. This film (And Rogue One to a certain extent) showed that it's far more than that. The Force is that tension between all things, that it has a will of it's own, and that true mastery will require Wisdom.

The old Jedi order taught discipline, they trained Jedi in how to use the force...but Wisdom was lacking. I can teach a group of common recruits Discipline, I can instruct people with the will to push the abilities they have to their limits...but Wisdom...oh that is MUCH harder lesson to learn....and Luke's example at the end couldn't BE a more wonderful example for Rey to follow. He dosen't come to kill Kylo Ren, but he shows power, skill, and most importantly WISDOM in how he confronts his fallen pupil. Kylo Ren is left slashing at phantoms, wasting time and energy on ghosts that can not harm him...while the true threat to his power escapes. Worse yet, Luke example inspires the minds of the young and downtrodden across the galaxy. Even if Rey fails, we're already seeing the birth of a new generation, inspired by Luke's legend to oppose injustice and tyranny.

I have to admit, I'm excited to see the final movie and I really hope JJ Abrams dosen't drop the ball or retcon things. (Though considering the movie has passed 1 billion world wide, has made more money domestically than Rogue Ones run and did all that during a crowded holiday season and a nasty winter storm I probably shouldn't worry about that). I think the best ending right now, (IMHO) would be for Rey, Finn and Poe to either engineer a scenario where Kylo Ren destroys himself, or where he ends up captured and disconnected from the force...but Rey hands him copies of the Jedi Text, giving hope that perhaps, in jail with his thoughts and the books he will eventually make a turn around.

[GandALF]

The Force has essentially been degraded to a generic superpower which is as powerful and or dangerous as the plot requires.

I remember a 5 year old Starkiller pulling Vader's sabre right out of his hand back in the day.

Johnson was cleaning up Abrams' mess by showing that she isn't a superhero and actually does make mistakes and her lack of discipline is precisely what allows Kylo Ren to manipulate her in to helping him seize power.

[Ordo]

The Force has essentially been degraded to a generic superpower which is as powerful and or dangerous as the plot requires.

I remember a 5 year old Starkiller pulling Vader's sabre right out of his hand back in the day.

Johnson was cleaning up Abrams' mess by showing that she isn't a superhero and actually does make mistakes and her lack of discipline is precisely what allows Kylo Ren to manipulate her in to helping him seize power.

This is a fair point. I like JJ Abrams, and enjoyed TFA, but his love of mystery boxes got the better of him. RJ tossed that Bull**** out and focused on the characters. RJ had issues but overall I love what he's done here. Poe got a serious wake up call about being a 'Military Maverick' (And OPSEC since it's him blabbing about the plan over a comm that saw a LOT of the Resistance shuttles shot down over Crait), Finn learned to think beyond his friends, the immediate situation and past the glamour (Important for a Storm Trooper that's known nothing but the FO) and Rey now knows what the Force really is, that internal conflict does not equal immediate redemption and that her worth/future is not determined by her parents.

Honestly, RJ did JJ a favor, since the final movie can just quickly reaffirm that Rey is related to no one of importance, and focus on either the Rise of the Rebellion, the fall of the First Order and/or the Downfall of Kylo Ren.

I will admit, I'd actually enjoy seeing Kylo Ren in a 'Downfall' type situation, where he's slowly losing it as the good guys close in, seeing visions of Luke and his father talking to him as he slips into madness.

[Fixer]

None of this showed up in the films. It's always been Sith/Jedi until now. It's nice that the EU could mention such things but until it shows up in official films it's basically fanfiction.

Clone Wars/Rebels is officially canon in the reboot. You even have Chopper/Sindula in Rogue one.

I feel differently. For one, Rey was in Kylo's head after TFA, and it's after that action where she starts doing things like using the force to manipulate minds. I'd be willing to argue she got more than just an insight into his fears at that moment. As for lifting rocks, she doesn't have the same issues that Luke did when he arrived on Dagobah, and Luke shows her how to connect in such a fashion that she's able to lift the pebbles around her. However, all of that is for naught vs Snoke who slaps her around like the silly child she is when she confronts him. To be fair both she and Kylo have a LONG way to go before they ever reach the proficiency of their respective masters.

Mindripping the secrets of the force from Kylo's mind is fanfiction though. Rey having no special lineage is fine but frankly the entire retcon of having no interesting backstory and the lowering of the bar by TLJ has made one hell of a mess. In the novelisation and other discussion of where the Rey was able to do all the things she could from TFA, it was suggested everyone recognised her and she had some prior experience. Now she can match or beat Kylo in fighting elite guards, force pulls, mental combat. The one person that could best her is now dead.
Fortunately the books she took will allow anyone to handwave any future abilities the Rey needs to have should the plot require them so this shouldn't be a problem for future instalments.

TFA was the reset button for Star Wars and it looks like that button was pushed it's now stuck and it'll follow on to every future instalment. With no plan and character arcs which cannot be completely undone by the next writer in the series we're looking at some truly terrible story management and continuity. We're down to Transformers level here.

This is not a video game, you are not locked into the light or the dark side by any one decision. Darth Vader, even after everything he'd done in his life turned away from the Darkside at the very end. Rey...went to the dark during her vision...tempted by knowledge of her parents...but she didn't actually DO anything evil. No one was harmed by her actions, but it did show where she was vulnerable....which Kylo Ren later used to tempt her to his side when she was at her weakest...when she was shown to still have a long way to go in her training.

The video games are the ones in where you have more freedom with light and dark because as a player, you are simply not manipulated by the dark side itself. The Dark side corrupts your motivations. The more you draw on it, the more it changes you. A small taste tempts you to draw upon it more. Once you travel down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny. It takes an epic amount of willpower to reject that power once you're invested in it.

One of the lessons Yoda taught Luke in the cave, when he drew upon the Dark Side to fight the phantom of Vader, his act of striking him down in anger put him on the path to becoming Vader himself.

Even Luke's mistake shows that the Dark Side never stops tempting people. It's always there. To borrow from Dragon Age "Simple killing is a warrior's job. The real dangers of [the Force] are preconceptions... careless trust... pride. Keep your wits about you, [Jedi]. True tests... never end."

Luke, to me, in this film, is Like King David in the Bible...a man who has done great things...but later in life makes a mistakes you'd think would never even cross his mind...and suffers for it along with the people he served.

Sadly this entire plot thread is a destruction of Luke's character. Luke found the small spark of light in Vader and could not bring himself to kill him. He chose to face death rather than turn to the dark side twice. Once before his father, once in front of the Emperor. He was someone that would never leave his friends behind.

Now, he senses some darkness in Ben, the child of his sister and best friend, and decides to murder him in his sleep. Because of that guy who gets murdered and whose backstory and influence in shaping all of the events of the current conflict will now be forgotten because frankly, world building is hard. Luke abandons the entire Galaxy and his friends. Exists only now as a failure who passes on none of his knowledge and the Rey leaves behind. Hats off the Mark Hamill for acting his ass off in every scene but this wasn't a character deconstruction.

A character deconstruction would have been Luke being himself and having some rational negative outcome to it. This was a character assassination.

Okay, at no point did she match Luke. When they fought, Luke disarmed her and tossed her weapon aside. It was only when she pulled a lightsaber that he backed down...and you know what...he did the right thing. This wasn't Rey showing she was his equal, this was a master De-esclating a situation by showing he wasn't going to fight. He got her to calm down which was far more important than 'Winning' a fight. This is shown not only by Snoke throwing her around like a rag doll, and then revealing the 'Force Link' across planets was his creation, but by Luke projecting himself from across the galaxy to stall Kylo Ren.

She does match Yoda's force abilities though. Extreme effort and concentration to lift one X-Wing. An entire mountainside, first try. Rey matches the most seasoned Jedi and Sith in this regard and has only known of the force for two to three days. She wasn't even taught to handle a lightsaber. She just swung at a rock on her own initiative, and she's the equal to or better than Kylo who was trained by the two most powerful force users in the galaxy in facing Snoke's guards.

It is possible that this is a video game though, and she opened up enough lootboxes and level boosts to master level force lift ability just after character creation.

Honestly, I think just the opposite. The force, as seen after the Prequels, was a generic super power...like Rey said to Luke in TLJ "It's a power Jedi have to lift rocks and manipulate minds" and I'd argue she was speaking as most in the general audience would at that point. It was something you were granted by a quirk of genetics, and that you could use to manipulate the world and the people around you. This film (And Rogue One to a certain extent) showed that it's far more than that. The Force is that tension between all things, that it has a will of it's own, and that true mastery will require Wisdom.

The prequels were pretty awful in their handling of the force in general. From midichlorian counts to the nature of the dark side which wasn't explained and terrible discussion of handling attachments. Much material still kept the force as a mysterious power that had family ties but would skip generations or appear in individuals with no force sensitivity in their bloodline.

Most of the philosophy of the force and what is means to be Jedi still comes from Yoda's discussion in ESB. A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defence. Calm, at peace. The force has a will that will guide your actions but it will also obey your commands. The dark side though offers power in times of need. Fear, Anger or aggression flows easily but it can consume you. None of this is discussed or particularly relevant anymore.

The Force is the power to solve all immediate problems as the script writer wills it. No training, discipline or particular effort required.

[Karha of Honor]

The Force has essentially been degraded to a generic superpower which is as powerful and or dangerous as the plot requires.

I remember a 5 year old Starkiller pulling Vader's sabre right out of his hand back in the day.

Johnson was cleaning up Abrams' mess by showing that she isn't a superhero and actually does make mistakes and her lack of discipline is precisely what allows Kylo Ren to manipulate her in to helping him seize power.

I recall the Force Unleashed being divisive but people not really complainning that much because there was so much other EU to enjoy. i wish they would had went with the Wookie freedom fighter concept.

[Ordo]

Clone Wars/Rebels is officially canon in the reboot. You even have Chopper/Sindula in Rogue one.

The general movie going audience is likely NOT paying attention to the Clone Wars. Fans are which is why they put little Easter eggs like that in there, but until Rogue One the GA likely thought of the force as a Sith/Jedi thing.

Rey having no special lineage is fine but frankly the entire retcon of having no interesting backstory and the lowering of the bar by TLJ has made one hell of a mess. In the novelisation and other discussion of where the Rey was able to do all the things she could from TFA, it was suggested everyone recognised her and she had some prior experience.

Movie trumps Novels, Pablo said that himself. All TFA did was leave her backstory unexplained, which fans and others seized on to create theories linking her to just about everyone in the Star Wars lore. Her actual backstory works out just fine with the film itself. Han didn't know her, Leia didn't know her not even Maz knew anything about her. Her background was a complete mystery to them all, and now you have an answer, she's no one special.

Now she can match or beat Kylo in fighting elite guards, force pulls, mental combat. The one person that could best her is now dead. Fortunately the books she took will allow anyone to handwave any future abilities the Rey needs to have should the plot require them so this shouldn't be a problem for future instalments.

Let's see, Luke, once he put the blinders on, manages to block a series of blaster bolts the first time he holds a lightsaber, pulls a lightsaber to himself from the ground and makes two missiles do a 90 degree turn. Then he fights Darth Vader, getting the advantage without actually being shown to practice lightsaber combat at any time during ESB. Rey manages to defeat a badly injured Kylo Ren in TFA, and in TLJ (After guidance from Luke) defeats the Elite guard with Kylo Ren's help.

Also, recall this line from Yoda "Already know you, that which you need, no more training do you require." so it's not like this is unprecedented.

TFA was the reset button for Star Wars and it looks like that button was pushed it's now stuck and it'll follow on to every future instalment. With no plan and character arcs which cannot be completely undone by the next writer in the series we're looking at some truly terrible story management and continuity. We're down to Transformers level here.

From Chucks own videos about the making of the Original series, we've seen how much was done on the fly, how much was changed and altered as the trilogy went on and that worked out just fine. Either option has risks associated with it, but so far I'd say Star Wars is benefiting from this direction. We shall see what happens when Rian Johnson drafts his own trilogy.

Now, he senses some darkness in Ben, the child of his sister and best friend, and decides to murder him in his sleep.

Incorrect, it crossed his mind, but he pulled back realizing the mistake he was about to make. He was again tempted, but pulled back, which goes into my point about the Darkside NEVER going away. It's always there, always finding new ways to tempt people. Yes he knew Ben....he also had been watching him slip further and further into darkness during his training. Then, when he looked inside Ben he saw all his worst fears manifested, a new Vader (You can literally hear the screams) and he contemplated ending the threat. Let's be fair here, Ben was ALWAYS a troubled child and Luke knew this, and thought (in his admitted arrogance) that he could sort the boy out...and he was failing. If years of guidance had only seen the boy grow darker and darker I can see how the thought of stopping him right then and there would briefly be tempting to Luke Skywalker. Afterall, Luke nearly killed Vader when he threatened to turn his sister and that was AFTER he claimed he wouldn't fight him over and over again. In fact the only reason he pulled back was because he saw his fathers hand and realized what was happening.

Luke abandons the entire Galaxy and his friends. Exists only now as a failure who passes on none of his knowledge and the Rey leaves behind.

This is why I mentioned King David, the man did all these great and amazing things....then had another man killed so he could take said man's wife. You would not expect a man with David's past to make that kind of grave mistake...and yet he did. The same here with Luke

She does match Yoda's force abilities though.

Uh...no she dosen't, moving some Rocks is basic, and Luke's failure with the X-Wing was a sign of his particular hangups. He should've had no trouble moving it if as Yoda said "No Difference, only difference is in your mind"

She wasn't even taught to handle a lightsaber. She just swung at a rock on her own initiative, and she's the equal to or better than Kylo who was trained by the two most powerful force users in the galaxy in facing Snoke's guards.

Rey has been fighting on Jakku since she was a child, as seen by her using the staff to fight off attackers. Her abilities are unrefined but she has raw experience and is clever. When she fought Kylo Ren she was flat out LOSING until she let the force in to aid her actions. It was enough for her to get an advantage over an injured Kylo Ren. With the ELite guards, she's strengthened her connection to the force and has clearly gotten in some practice with the Saber, it's enough to let her defeat them with Kylo's Aid.

and like I said earlier...Luke get's NO on screen lightsaber training from Yoda but manages to hold his own against Vader for awhile in ESB then defeat him in ROTJ.

The Force is the power to solve all immediate problems as the script writer wills it. No training, discipline or particular effort required.

Almost every single word in that last sentence, was wrong. Rey's use of the force solved almost none of her problems. It didn't tell her who her parents were, it didn't enable her to defend herself from Snoke, it didn't even end the threat of the First Order and Kylo Ren. The only thing her use of the Force did do was save her friends at the very end. She used the most basic expression of the force, lifting rocks, to ensure this war dosen't end on Crait. Her lack of discipline, training and most importantly WISDOM, nearly got her killed, and handed the First Order over to Kylo Ren...which may end up being far worse than Snoke.

[GandALF]

I know I'm the only one insane enough to actually watch the Phantom Menace but Midi-chlorians were never stated to actually be the Force. The prophecy, what balance means, the unscientific origins of Midi-chlorians, Force ghosts were all elaborated on by the Mortis and Yoda arcs of the clone wars.

Both arcs are directly and indirectly referenced in TLJ. Luke's "death" and Yoda's appearance make a lot more sense in the context of those arcs

[Fixer]

Let's see, Luke, once he put the blinders on, manages to block a series of blaster bolts the first time he holds a lightsaber, pulls a lightsaber to himself from the ground and makes two missiles do a 90 degree turn. Then he fights Darth Vader, getting the advantage without actually being shown to practice lightsaber combat at any time during ESB. Rey manages to defeat a badly injured Kylo Ren in TFA, and in TLJ (After guidance from Luke) defeats the Elite guard with Kylo Ren's help.

Also, recall this line from Yoda "Already know you, that which you need, no more training do you require." so it's not like this is unprecedented.

Okay, I'm just going to skip everything else and focus on this one part because I am short of time.

You're comparing Luke, a force prodigy, trying to deflect blaster bolts from a training remote, failing on his own, then succeeding only with Obi Wan's further guidance.
The time he barely pulled a lightsaber to himself with great effort after three years of becoming aware of the force.
The time he managed the Death Star shot with Obi Wan guiding him from beyond the grave and only succeeding with the assistance of an entire squadron of X-Wing pilots and Han saving him at the last moment.
The time he faced off with Vader after at least a month of training with Yoda, was toyed with then scarred for life from getting handily (heh) beaten.

With Rey pulling off resisting interrogation, pulling off mind tricks, force pulling and lightsaber combat at best a few hours after learning that the force was a thing that exists. With zero training or guidance. Fighting on par with or above Kylo after a few moments of waving a saber at a rock, with zero training of guidance.
Your handwave being your headcanon that Rey ripped all the knowledge from Kylo's mind.

Your level of equivalence and willing suspension of disbelief has to be on an entirely different level to mine.

I find it much easier to believe that terrible writing is involved here in a movie filled with failed slapstick humour and opening with a "your mom" joke.

Following up with Rian Johnson saying Rey's parents are still possibly an open question.
http://www.gamesradar.com/thought-star- ... t-so-sure/

We're probably not going to get a decent discussion on TLJ until everyone has made it past the five stages of grief or initial movie buzz. Seems that takes about a year judging from TFA.

Until then we have J.J. Abrams legendary ability to write a satisfying conclusion to a story after two movies which have been reboots in a row. It's time to set expectations accordingly.

[Ordo]

You're comparing

Yes I am, and here's why's why.

You're comparing Luke, a force prodigy

And Rey’s not? Did you think a Force prodigy could only come from the Skywalker line?

With Rey pulling off resisting interrogation

Leia kept the location of the Rebels safe from Darth Vader and she had NO training. So clearly what Rey did (After being told by Maz to let the force in) is well within the bounds of established lore.

pulling off mind tricks,

Again, she managed to push Kylo Ren out of her mind, and then it took her three tries to manipulate a Storm Trooper (who we’ve established are weak minded). Considering what she just did, this is not at all hard to see.

force pulling and lightsaber combat at best a few hours after learning that the force was a thing that exists.

Like how Luke made two missiles going at full bore turn 90 degrees? So I see nothing wrong with Rey pulling a lightsaber to herself considering what Luke did in the first film. As I said, she already had experience fighting on Jakku….and she won a fight against a weakened opponent…AFTER she followed Maz’s guidance and let the force in..

With zero training or guidance

You forgot about Maz, who told her what to do…let the force in…she did and in that scenario she succeeded.

Fighting on par with or above Kylo after a few moments of waving a saber at a rock

We never saw Luke use a Saber on Dagobah…and yet he holds his own in a fight against Vader, even surprising him with his skill. Now in the new series we’ve established in TFA and TLJ that Rey carries a melee weapon around with her constantly (her staff), so why are you shocked that she has at least a brawlers level of competence with a Lightsaber? Even then her victories include a weakened Kylo Ren (Who took a hit from Finn who at present has no affinity for the Force) who wanted to take her alive, and a bunch of Elite guards, who had no apparent ability to use the force….and that second victory came with help from Kylo Ren and after she received guidance and a strengthening of her connection to the force from Luke.

Your handwave being your headcanon that Rey ripped all the knowledge from Kylo's mind.

That’s only for the mind trick, and that’s more of a forced crash course than anything else.

Your level of equivalence and willing suspension of disbelief has to be on an entirely different level to mine.

We have Luke and Rey, both “force prodigies”, both showing rapid progression in their abilities and skills, far faster than the normal training we saw in the Prequel era. In TFA we see Rey getting guidance from Maz and even the voices of past Jedi masters like Yoda and Kenobi (During her vision Kenobi can be heard saying ‘These are your first steps’). While in ANH, Luke get’s a few words from Kenobi and is able to make missile do a 90 degree turn to destroy the Death Star. Then there’s Anakin who only won a Pod race after he was told to trust his feelings, a feat few (if any) other humans had accomplished.

Han was wrong, this is how the force works.

Rey has the connection inside her, and she didn’t have the same issues that Luke did when he arrived on Dagobah. With Luke lifting the X-Wing was never a question of power, it was always a question of mindset. He believed the task was impossible, that the object was too big, and so it was for him in that moment.

Luke: “I don’t believe it”

Yoda: “That is why you fail.”

Rey had a different set of issues to overcome and even then it’s only after failing in her mission, that she gains a greater control over her abilities, as shown by her…doing the most basic thing…lifting rocks.

Following up with Rian Johnson saying Rey's parents are still possibly an open question.
http://www.gamesradar.com/thought-star- ... t-so-sure/

Each director has a lot of control of their films, but even so JJ loved what RJ wrote so much that he wished he could direct it, and has stated he’s inspired to take the ending in new directions. Financially and critically the film is a success with Audiences leaving the theater giving it an ‘A’ last time I checked. I’m sure they’ll make some changes in the next movie, likely throttle back on the Jokes and Porg creatures, and give the rest of the caste a more interesting story. However I do not expect them to make Rey the child of destiny, as they all read the script before RJ began filming and were fully capable of striking that down from the get go.