The Hermit's Journey. To arms, prequel defenders, to arms!

[jadenova]

Considering that the EU seems to cover every year after the Battle of Endor there was no way Disney could just shoehorn their stuff into the EU without scrapping it.

[Karha of Honor]

Considering that the EU seems to cover every year after the Battle of Endor there was no way Disney could just shoehorn their stuff into the EU without scrapping it.

They did not have to scrap everything.

[Sir Will]

I just had a brilliant idea! Say that the explosion of Death Star II opened a rift that created an alternative timeline!

This totally original idea can in no way fail to make everybody completely happy!!

I'm still happy the original timeline actually exists. Part of the reason Discovery sucks is it's like the ST, actually set in the original usiverse (supposedly) and mucking things up.

[Karha of Honor]

I just had a brilliant idea! Say that the explosion of Death Star II opened a rift that created an alternative timeline!

This totally original idea can in no way fail to make everybody completely happy!!

I'm still happy the original timeline actually exists. Part of the reason Discovery sucks is it's like the ST, actually set in the original usiverse (supposedly) and mucking things up.

Like what?

[Darth Wedgius]

I just had a brilliant idea! Say that the explosion of Death Star II opened a rift that created an alternative timeline!

This totally original idea can in no way fail to make everybody completely happy!!

The EU was still discontinued.

I was being rather tongue-in-cheek there, but this would at least have allowed the EU to continue, similar in the way Trek novels can still be set in the prime timeline rather than the Kelvinverse (because the "totally original" was ironic).

[Yukaphile]

I just had a brilliant idea! Say that the explosion of Death Star II opened a rift that created an alternative timeline!

This totally original idea can in no way fail to make everybody completely happy!!

I'm still happy the original timeline actually exists. Part of the reason Discovery sucks is it's like the ST, actually set in the original usiverse (supposedly) and mucking things up.

This goes back to part of what I was talking about. Hollywood is becoming too safe, too predictable, wanting to bank on what they know sold well in the past rather than actually being creative themselves. That's where all these reboots come from. It's an appeal to nostalgia rather than actually trying to emulate the decisions that led to those things being good. Again, it's reboot after reboot after reboot. It is nonstop and I just want it to END.

[Nevix]

The EU had its audience, and there was good stuff in there... but for all that there were FORTY YEARS of comics and novels... (which contradicted themselves as well!) how much really came out of them that were widely appreciated?

Han and Leia's kids? Zahn's Thrawn trilogy? And as a result of that maybe Mara Jade?

8000 different stories about cleaning up remnant bits of the Empire? (WHich they eventually realized had gotten old which is when they introduced the Vong 20 years later.. which could have worked but was badly executed and for way too long.) Luke almost going to the dark side a bunch of times? The most interesting ideas carried forward in some iteration.

We got Thrawn in the new cartoon. We got Han and Leia's kid going Dark Side. We didn't get a wife for Luke, but since we're not following every second of his life for decades that matters less than it did.

For all that there were 40 years of material and people that loved them (I'm among them) there honestly wasn't *that* much truly worth preserving, that much that was widely accepted and acclaimed that everyone pointed to and went "THAT is exactly how it should be." Out of hundreds of novels and thousands of comics, mostly just the Thrawn trilogy. And really, 40 years is a long time.
They don't burn your copies of the old material or your memories of it, but it was time for a clean start. No long running franchise that has more than one creator can go that long without needing a clean restart occasionally. Look at Marvel and DC soft reboot themselves once a decade.

Everything started running into contradictions as far back as the prequel trilogy starting. Heck, event the first Clone Wars cartoon, made in 2003, that was awesome as heck... was already wiped out of canon once the CGI show started... in 2008!

At least KotoR is basically still intact because it goes so far back none of the new changes touch it anyway.

2 kotors, certain SWTOR storylines, Legacy by Ostrander had some good buzz. There ill not be an another KOTOR comic book. it is dead unlike the Treklit in the original universe.


They don't burn your copies of the old material or your memories of it, but it was time for a clean start. No long running franchise that has more than one creator can go that long without needing a clean restart occasionally. Look at Marvel and DC soft reboot themselves once a decade.

They play around with about 80 years and a lot Earth stuff the EU played around with 30000 and a gieant galaxy. Way easier to manage.

If you play Star Wars: The Old Republic, you get books 3 through 10 of KOTOR's storyline, as the creators saw a way to get the story through there. Although... watching a story summary/story video collection is probably better.

Like Chuck's review of ToR, from the Infiltrator's viewpoint.

As for the actual Hermit's Journey... I think the division with George Lucas results from his push for digital filming being heavily overshadowed by how badly he messed up on the Prequels, and by him selling Star Wars to Disney.

He's (arguably) a genius creator... if you keep his flaws in check. Flaws that I know more about thanks to the Hermit's Journey documentary. I also DO know how influential George Lucas was in the initial push for Digital Film and other innovations too.

Genius creator...

He mixed other stuff well once and is friends with a lot of industry people. That is it.

There are other terms that apply to George Lucas that are less kind, and also accurate.

So, yes. Genius Creator.

And also rather derogatory and insulting terms, like "director who needs at least two people to keep him from running off into the fields and going crazy", apply too.

There are some that I won't post, mind you. I'm not as cruel as I once was, in my youth. Still more young at heart than anything else though.

[Winter]

Okay before I bring this point up I just want to say that if you disagree with me on what I am about to say that is completely fine. I have no interested in trying to start a flame war especially on this forum as I am a big fan of Chuck and his reviews and agree with his view point that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and my opinion is just that, MY opinion and if you disagree with me that is okay and I would love to debate with you on the subject.

So with that out of the way I really just want to say that I really don't like The Last Jedi and I have a new appreciation for the Prequel Trilogy. I've actually always enjoyed the Prequels despite their flaws and looking back on them today, its been about 5 years sense I watched the series outside of The Clone Wars and Rebels, they're really not that bad. And after seeing Chuck's video series about Lucas and learning all the reasons why they turned out the way they did I have a even greater respect for George Lucas as a film maker, a writer and just as a storyteller. Given the limitations he unknowingly put on himself its actually quite amazing that the Prequels turned out as good as they did.

Which leads me to the point of this little comment, The Prequels had a number of moments when the characters did something stupid just they could have a cool action scene but as long as said action scene was fun, which I think most of them are, I was okay with it. And other moments I don't really consider true Idiot Plot moments like when Palpatine took complete control of the Republic and turned it into the Galactic Empire as it was firmly established in all three Prequels that Palpatine had most of the senate under his control and that the number of those outside of his control became smaller and smaller with which passing year until only a handful remained. Also Palpatine claiming that the reason for his deformity being the result of an assassination attempt on his life is actually believable as he looked fine one day and deformed the next only after the Jedi came to pay him a visit.

Also we sadly have several examples of people who say and do evil things or those who are greatly incompetent that gain positions of power in the real world, and that's all I'm saying on that.

However, aside from Star Wars: Rebels, which despite a few passing issues, is really great show the Disney Era of the films have been a bit underwhelming and as of the time of this writing I think that The Last Jedi is the overall worse Star Wars film to date. I wouldn't go as far to say that its the worst Star Wars thing ever, personally I think the D-Squad arc from the Clone Wars and the Star Wars Holiday Special are worse. But for me, its easily a contender for the top 10 Worst Star Wars Stories of all time, maybe even Top 5.

My biggest issues with it are, characters acting stupid for the sake of the plot, Rey not really growing as a character as she ends the film the same way she started, (as a young person with a natural talent for the force who seeks to kill Kylo Ren for the death of her father figure/mentor), 45 minutes of the film could have been cut without losing anything, the villains are jokes at this point and are less accomplished and more of a joke then Nute Gunray. For the most part I also find the action to be rather dull with the most notable exception being, of course, the third act of Rouge One which has some great action scenes.

And finally, the worst moment of any Star Wars movie, Luke contemplating killing his Nephew in his sleep on the grounds that he might turn evil. Even taking into consideration that Luke has had all of ONE outburst of anger that caused him to kill his father this scene still fails on every level this scene still fails as one of Luke's most defining characteristics is his faith in those he loves as shown when he trusted his friends to pull through and destroy the second Death Star. I know a lot of fans hate the scene where Han didn't shoot Greedo first but honestly it never bothered me as nothing about Han's changed and in the end his character arc was completely unaffected. Luke seriously considering killing his own Nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber is so out of character that I find it to be on par with the ending of Mass Effect 3 as far as insulting to the series goes.

And in regards to the most praised element of The Last Jedi, that it shock up the status quo and did things differently, The Thrawn Trilogy did it first and, in my opinion, did it better. At the time of this writing there have been at least two petitions to strike The Last Jedi from the canon and while it is likely never going to happen, (the film was well received by critics and was a huge hit at the box office) I honestly do think that the series should be rebooted and that Disney should just make film adaptations of The Thrawn Trilogy.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they did given that of all the villains from the Disney Era the most well received have been Darth Vader and Grand Admiral Thrawn. And its not like Disney doesn't know how popular the Thrawn Trilogy is, they directly reference it when talking about making Thrawn in Star Wars Rebels.

Even 20 years later TTT is still refered to as one of if not the best Star Wars stories outside the original trilogy and I am 100% positive that if Disney was to announce that they would be rebooting episodes 7, 8 and 9 and replacing them with film adaptations of TTT and that they would be getting new actors to play Luke, Han, Leia and Lando, (as the trilogy is suppose to take place 5 years after Return of the Jedi and due to Carrie Fisher's death (F#(K YOU 2016!!!) they would have to get new actors to play the characters) the only complaint about this is the fact that new actors would be playing the classic characters.

Another reason I prefer TTT over the Disney Era films is A) it manages to be both a direct sequel to the original trilogy while also being (completely by accident) a thematic sequel to the prequels due to a number of similar elements and how Mara Jade's journey nicely contrasts Anakin's. And B) The characters are actually clever and don't relay on either side to grab hold of the idiot ball for the plot to work.

So those are my thoughts on the current state of the Star Wars films, what do you think of the Disney Era of Star Wars?

[GandALF]

So those are my thoughts on the current state of the Star Wars films, what do you think of the Disney Era of Star Wars?

I think you're misremembering/misinterpreting Luke's arc in TLJ although some people that like TLJ also seem to be misinterpreting it.

Its seems to me that Johnson has a much better understanding of Lucas' ideas and how he expanded upon them in the prequels whereas TFA seemed to be desperate to appease the prequel bashers. Star Wars' main theme is internal conflict, its about both a literal and metaphorical civil war, Vader is ultimately a reflection of Luke's dark side. IMO What makes TLJ Rey superior to the maRey sue of TFA is that she makes a mistake because she's an insecure neophyte who wants to live up to a legacy, just like Kylo Ren

Rogue One is also is better with this theme than TFA with Cassian rethinking his ruthlessness and Jyn overcoming her apathy. Even the Thrawn Trilogy has Luke fighting his clone.

So yeah, I think episode IX is going to prove that Star Trek(2009) is Abrams' best Star Wars film and Johnson's trilogy is going to be a lot better, for me at least, they're probably all going to be hyper polarising and hopefully Disney will slow down the one-film-a-year stuff.

[Winter]

So those are my thoughts on the current state of the Star Wars films, what do you think of the Disney Era of Star Wars?

I think you're misremembering/misinterpreting Luke's arc in TLJ although some people that like TLJ also seem to be misinterpreting it.

Its seems to me that Johnson has a much better understanding of Lucas' ideas and how he expanded upon them in the prequels whereas TFA seemed to be desperate to appease the prequel bashers. Star Wars' main theme is internal conflict, its about both a literal and metaphorical civil war, Vader is ultimately a reflection of Luke's dark side. IMO What makes TLJ Rey superior to the maRey sue of TFA is that she makes a mistake because she's an insecure neophyte who wants to live up to a legacy, just like Kylo Ren

Rogue One is also is better with this theme than TFA with Cassian rethinking his ruthlessness and Jyn overcoming her apathy. Even the Thrawn Trilogy has Luke fighting his clone.

So yeah, I think episode IX is going to prove that Star Trek(2009) is Abrams' best Star Wars film and Johnson's trilogy is going to be a lot better, for me at least, they're probably all going to be hyper polarising and hopefully Disney will slow down the one-film-a-year stuff.

I actually do understand Luke's character arc and admit that I have no issue with the idea of the arc, my issue is simply the execution as, I like I said before, Luke contemplating murdering his own nephew in his sleep is something that just doesn't fit his character and, from my point of view, was done just to move the plot forward in the desired diction. Kylo Needed to turn to the dark side, he had to have a reason to hate Luke so in order for that to work Luke had to break character as there was no believable way for that situation to play out.

Now again, I do get the arc and its not bad, on paper but the means to get there requires a series of events that just feels lazy to me. Now it is true that Star Wars: Legends did something similar as Luke was likewise nearly driven to the dark side, and I found it to be just as poorly written as the that bit in TLJ if not worse. However, that was after a series of likewise really poorly written plot points had happened and the people Luke killed/considered killing had were already evil and proved that they where beyond redemption and even then, if I'm remembering it correctly I haven't read those stories for years and have no real interest to, he gave them the chance to redeem themselves before he tried to kill them. And he differently tried to redeem them several times their deaths.

Another issue I have with TLJ is some of the rather contrived plot elements which requires me to white them out because just how spoiler filled the film is and while I don't really care for it I don't want to ruin the plot for anyone who hasn't seen it.

First off there's the tech that allows the First Order to track ships through lightspeed. This tech has never been seen or mentioned before and will likely never been seen or mentioned again as it opens up a number of problems for future stories. This also opens up a major plot hole in relation to TFA as if the first order had this sort of tech along with the death star 3.0 then why didn't they use a week ago, in universe, when they were dealing with the resistance. They could jet let Poe escape figure out where he were the resistance was hiding and just blew it to hell with their new death star. What also bugs me is there was a easy way to avoid this plot hole along with the pointless filer plot around Finn & Rose and made Holdo not look like a complete idiot with just one scene added. Holdo takes Poe aside and tells him that she believes that there might be a traitor aboard. This then solves all the problems and adds something that we never really seen before in a SW film, as Poe and Finn work together to try and figure out who the traitor is and creates a atmosphere of dread as we don't know who the traitor which is compounded by Leia being in a coma so they can't rely on her possible ability to use the force to try and figure out who the traitor is. Meaning that the new generation has to rely on themselves without any help from the previous generation. And in the end as Rose is reviled to be the traitor which is the new reason as to why she stopped him during the final battle. This would also help tie back in nicely Finn's character arc as he is now facing off against his opposite number. Finn turned his back on the First Order after seeing the horrors they commit while Rose turned her back on the resistance after her sister's death which she holds the resistance responsible. This would also tie back into the films central theme nicely as Rose feels that the resistance has failed her by letting her sister die and Poe and Finn fail to stop the traitor and in the end the Rose dies or is captured due to the failure while Poe and Finn decided to not let this failure define them and move on in the films climax.

What I love about the Thrawn Trilogy is that the series was able to avoid most of these issues and characters didn't need to break character at any point in order for the plot to work. Luke continually gave both Mara and C'baoth several chances to redeem themselves, Winter told everyone what they needed to know instead of withholding vital information for no reason, the villains didn't depend on the heroes doing dumb things for the sake of their plots to work.

Also I'm still getting less and less impressed with Rey as the series goes on as she didn't really grow that much in this film, for me at least, and her sudden desire to redeem seemed kind of random. She goes from hating him and wanting him dead for Han's death to doing everything in her power redeem and then going right back wanting to kill him, (I think) over the course of three days.

What makes Anakin, Luke and Mara such better characters then Rey, and only taking the first and second chapter into consideration here, is that their conflicting loyalties, growth as characters where all felt natural and once they reached their respective turning points where all then different people then who they were at the start of their journeys. Rey has not really grown sense the start of TFA and even if she does finally grow in episode 9 her overall journey will likely not be as well remembered as Anakin's, Luke or Mara's. And while she does have flaws in TLJ they are, in my opinion, relativly minor and aren't as interesting then the flaws of the other three protagonists.

As I said before, these are just my opinions and I respect your opinions on the matter and if you disagree with me on some or even all of what I've said that's fine, I want to hear why people enjoyed TLJ. And I'm not standing on a soap box here telling everyone how TLJ ruined my childhood (insert eye rolling meme here) as I like the prequels despite their flaws. And George Lucas has had nothing but positive things to say about TLJ so maybe its just me.