Areas where you'd respectfully disagree with Chuck

[BunBun299]

I actually kinda like The Force Unleashed games. But I'm not broken up about them not being canon anymore. I found it completely ridiculous while playing them that any canon Jedi or Sith, including Vader and Palpatine, could pose any challenge at all to Starkiller, given how OP he was.

But that's basically my problem with the EU as a whole. Every time I hear something about it, it's something stupidly OP being done by some Force User. In all 9 of the movies, they're portrayed as being on the level of Spider Man or the X-Men. A point was even made multiple times in the Prequel movies that Jedi could not wage war, they'd get crushed under sheer numbers. So many EU stories seemed to want to make them capable of slapping Heralds of Galactus around.

Back on topic, I respectfully disagree with Chuck on the DS9 episode Paradise. While I agree with his opinion regarding the cult leader, forget her name, and her tyrannical philosophy, I actually enjoyed the episode a lot more than he did. And thought everyone wanting to stay was a testament to her brainwashing. Though were I in command of that mission, I'd have beamed everyone up anyway, and said if they got cleared by a psych evaluation, they were free to come back if they so choose.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

The story of The Force Unleashed is terrible, imo, and I agree with those who see it as kind of indicative of the problems with the EU and similar tie-in fiction. Certain lines or plot points are over-emphasized or made overly literal.

One example from Star Trek (the examples are legion) is a line spoken by one of Kang's lieutenants in The Day of the Dove- "Four thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man." It's a cool line, it shows the Klingon mentality. And yet with tie-in fiction, they can't leave well enough alone. It's turned into a running Klingon proverb, and there's even a comic dedicated to Kang retelling three possible origins of the phrase.

With Star Wars, Yoda's "Size matters not" or "Do or do not, there is no try" are pithy sayings meant that were meant to get Luke's head in the right place. The EU reifies those abstract concepts with increasingly ridiculous superhero type antics, which isn't actually what the Force is supposed to be about.

The gameplay of The Force Unleashed is decent enough, but they amp the problem to 11 with the unlikable, whiny Starkiller yanking Star Destroyers all over the place. I don't mind the idea of extremely powerful Force users, but manifesting it physically in that fashion is opening Pandora's Box. It's with good reason that no Star Wars movie has shown anything similar up to this point, and honestly I think that tendency in tie-in fiction is one big reason why Disney didn't mind tossing it all.


Or to put it more succinctly- restraint is one of the marks of good storytelling, and the EU didn't have any.

[RobbyB1982]

Star Wars EU should have been mined for good ideas and used as an inspiration. That way it could also be allowed to be a draw for EU fans instead of the cold splash of water that was thrown in their face.
.

That's exactly what they're doing though. Thrawn showed up in rebels, and Luke starting up a new Jedi academy with Leia and Han's kid going to the darkside showed up in the new movies.

And after that despite there being 40 years of stories there's just really not much else we need because not a whole lotof real substance or quality really came from the EU... other than chronicling every last minute of the main trio's lives. Except the cases where you go back 4000 years to KOTOR, and that's so outside the realm of the current series those aren't affected anyway unless they eventually do new material set then.

We might eventually get the Vong or Killiks or something like that if they decide once again eventually the leftovers of the empire has gotten stale, but we're not quite at that oversaturation point yet.

(So for instance, not having Mara Jade is a loss sure because she became a pretty major figure in the comics and novels... but in films where we don't see that 33 years of Luke's life, we really don't need to see him going through a courtship and marriage just to end with his Nephew killing her anyway.)

[Sir Will]

Back on topic, I respectfully disagree with Chuck on the DS9 episode Paradise. While I agree with his opinion regarding the cult leader, forget her name, and her tyrannical philosophy, I actually enjoyed the episode a lot more than he did. And thought everyone wanting to stay was a testament to her brainwashing. Though were I in command of that mission, I'd have beamed everyone up anyway, and said if they got cleared by a psych evaluation, they were free to come back if they so choose.

And I think he'd be fine with an end like that. What we got is the brainwashed (or plain stupid) masses agreeing with her and... that's it. Ok, go about your business then, cya.

[BunBun299]

Another area in which I disagree with Chuck is the order of best to worst for the Trek movies. Well, the top 5 I pretty much agree with him about. The bottom 5 (not counting the Kelvin Timeline movies), that's where I disagree. For me, from best to worst, they go;

Wrath of Khan
Undiscovered Country
First Contact
Voyage Home
Search for Spock
Nemesis
Generations
Final Frontier
Insurrection
The Motion Picture

To me, Nemesis is the best of the bad Trek films. I like the Remans and the Scimitar. I like Picard and Data pondering if they might have turned out like their counterparts of things had gone different.

Generations felt like a long episode, but not a terrible one to me.

Final Frontier was bad, but it feels like a sort of fun bad to me. I can still watch it and have a bit of fun, if I don't think about it too much.

Insurrection, however, I cannot turn my brain off enough for. And the anti tech sentiment can't be dismissed as the villains thing this time. I do not like this one at all.

And I actively hate TMP. It's just so boring. The only reason I even own a copy is that it came with the box set. The only reason I would ever watch that movie again is if someone wanted to watch it with me. A female someone with large breasts.

[Sir Will]

My order of the originals would probably be...

First Contact
Voyage Home
Wrath of Khan
Generations
Search for Spock
Nemesis
Insurrection
The Motion Picture / Final Frontier

I don't think I've actually seen 1, 5, or 6 all the way through. But while I'm confident 1 and 5 suck just from his reviews and the clips, 6... I don't remember liking it all that much but it does seem quite good from the review so I probably just didn't give it a fair shake when I was younger. I appreciate 2 more now, though 8's action and 4's comedy beat it out to me. Insurrection is also boring and dumb but unlike 1 and 5 I'm more attached to the characters.

[Rodan56]

After playing Kotor in full myself, I found myself disagreeing with Chuck chosen actions and justifications for a lot of scenarios in that game. I know it was just for that playthrough and he was roleplaying and everything, but honestly I just didn't and couldn't agree with a lot of it. I'll cite about three areas.

The Shark: I get that killing it seemed the most likely to succeed, but I also find it cruel. Clearly the creature was disturbed by the action of putting this machine here and it has agitated it to a severe degree. If the Republic hadn't gotten so greedy, if they hadn't made a mess of the treaty, none of this would've happened. But they compromised on this and a lot of people died. In my view, my Revan, after already being essentially forced into lying during a court case and playing neutral party, he couldn't let that stand. Exploiting the land for personal gain makes the principles of the Republic hollow. Killing this shark because it is a threat is out of the question to me because it never would've been a threat if this place wasn't invaded. So honestly, I refuse to kill an animal that has done nothing wrong when it was my own government who screwed the pooch on this. So, undo their mistake and set things right. That's how my Revan would work. Punish the true guilty party, not the animal defending its territory. The Jedi should not blindly follow the Republic's lead on things just because we work for them. Blind loyalty is pointless in this scenario and I refuse to make another creature pay for the crimes of man.

Mekel: These is no reason for him to die. None. I see no reason to make him suffer more. I'm fresh meat, I can take it. Is there some risk trust him? A bit. But he's Sith, and right now he wants revenge against the guy screwing with him. Plus I'm with Jolee, with his awesome healing powers. He can fix me up if Mekel can just break out of his bonds. If I can handle hours upon hours of torture from Saul's little gizmo on the Leviathan, I can handle some old geezer with Force Lightning. I see no reason for another person to suffer so I might save my own skin. Revan, in my mind, is not that selfish nor is he that, pardon my language, chickenshit. He can take it, he's handled way worse.

Yuthura Ban: I sided with her, and it makes more sense character wise to do so in my mind. Because she and Revan are much the same. Both wanted to act, both wanted to fight evil and change things. Both fell from grace and in doing so forgot all they were meant to save. When she relayed that story to me about how all she had wanted to do was stop slavers, but was prevented from doing so, knowing my own history, how could I not feel for her? And why should I trust the pure, heartless Sith running things? Because he's clearly more powerful? Because I stand a better chance with him? No. No way. Revan, in my mind, would not compromise himself to the Sith, not again. He's already done it once and it cost him severely. Here's another person in Yuthura, going down the very same path he did. This is my chance to possibly remind her of WHY she wanted to become strong with the Force. How the Darkside made her forget all her good intentions and poisoned her desire to do good. The insidiousness of the Dark Side is just that, it tells you one thing, but in the end you forget about your intent and only see the means for your own elevation. So I couldn't turn on Yuthura and I saw no reason to other than to be vindictive.

I feel my choices were more in character with who Revan, both in canon and in my own mind, is. A Jedi who will act and do whatever he feels it takes, but will never again forget why. He will suffer, he will gladly accept danger, he will take risks. He will not shy away from pain or difficulty. Because he's Revan! He can take it, he can survive and he can help others to see past the darkness to a better future. He will punish the wicked, but never out of hate, simply out of a desire to see justice done.

That's how I see him anyway. I respect other interpretation of these solutions, but I just can't agree with the alternatives answers to these missions. I don't feel they're right and I don't feel they're as easy to justify as they appear to be.

[Mercury01]

Could you elaborate on that issue please?

It's the tendency of later writers to reference a memorable line superficially and over-literally. This is a common problem in both fanfic and sequels in general.

That always bothered me about how Han's boast about the Kessel Run was treated in later material.

[Rocketboy1313]

That always bothered me about how Han's boast about the Kessel Run was treated in later material.

Well, that is almost certainly going to be a thing in the movie that is coming out.

Here is hoping it won't be retarded. But... Well, prequels are not this franchises strength.

[TGLS]

Well, that is almost certainly going to be a thing in the movie that is coming out.

Here is hoping it won't be retarded. But... Well, prequels are not this franchises strength.

I want the scene to go like this:
HAN'S MENTOR: Kid, I made the Kessel run in less than 15 parsecs!
[Beat]
HAN: The hell are you talking about? A parsec's a unit of distance!