Star Wars: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

[GandALF]

I am kind of on the side of Moviebob. He did two videos about this movie and both are about how the text and subtext of the movie is just "Isn't Star Wars Great?!"

LET'S TALK ABOUT LUKE SKYWALKER
https://youtu.be/bxDX-nywiTc

WHY THE LAST JEDI IS A LOVE LETTER TO STAR WARS FANS
https://youtu.be/qf_rqde7B0A

No not MovieBob! No!

I remember his weird af video about 300 and the Hunger Games in which he conflated selfish decadent hedonism with femininity and selfless spartanism with masculinity.

Considering Lucas described the dark side as selfish materialistic/base pleasure and the light as selfless spiritual joy, concepts which TLJ references in many ways (like Snoke's Hugh Hefner robe) I don't want him anywhere near this film!

[cilantro]

So I am currently watching John Campea's video on what he thought worked and didn't worked in TLJ and I have agreed that they never really show us what the Last Order was affected by the TFA and a few other points. I am barely half way in but so far some of his ideas is okay but I feel like he is missing the point why people are hating on TLJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fAvMAL ... PklXU5jx-6

[Rocketboy1313]

I remember his weird af video about 300 and the Hunger Games in which he conflated selfish decadent hedonism with femininity and selfless spartanism with masculinity.

He didn't say that.
He said those movies did.

And they did.

[Fixer]

The Last Jedi may be a love letter to Star Wars but it's one that opens with "I hope you're looking great for our date tonight, you're paying!" and ends with "I have your wife and Children, they will not be harmed."

[GandALF]

I remember his weird af video about 300 and the Hunger Games in which he conflated selfish decadent hedonism with femininity and selfless spartanism with masculinity.

He didn't say that.
He said those movies did.

And they did.

Well not definitively, neither of those movies exclusively apply those traits to men or women. He presented his overly narrow interpretation as the literal or near-literal messages of the films.

Does Rey's lack of fancy make-up and dresses make her more masculine or does her humble background make her more of a Marian figure? Could go either way.

[Ordo]

Had a though, riddle me this: if Poe hadn't blown up the dreadnought (at the cost of all the bombers and so on), when the Resistance hypered out and the First Order tracked them, would the dreadnought's autocannons have had the range to just blow the fleet away without a chase?

I'm not trying to establish a 'Poe was right all along, stop being mean to the poor guy' argument (I mean, you don't get points for being right by accident - "I backed over the last two with my car, luckily they turned out to be drug dealers"), just curious in a what-if sort of way.

Not clear, the Dreadnought is stated to be a fleet killer, but I have a hard time believing that Snoke's Flagship didn't have the same kind of range as the Dreadnought. Honestly, until stated otherwise, I feel that The Supremacy could wreck the same kind of damage, if not more, than the Dreadnought. It would fit in with the films themes, making it clear Poe sacrificed all those lives in an ultimately futile gesture. Destroying the Dreadnought, didn't help, since the First Order just had a bigger and better armed ship ready to jump in and wipe out the Resistance fleet.

The Last Jedi may be a love letter to Star Wars but it's one that opens with "I hope you're looking great for our date tonight, you're paying!" and ends with "I have your wife and Children, they will not be harmed."

I honestly see it differently, because the film ultimately upholds some of the best aspects of the past films even as it makes us question the status quo. The Force is not just a tool for the elite, or there to help smash bad guys...it's something MUCH more fundamental and universal. Heroes are not born to the job or from powerful bloodlines, they are people from all walks of life who decided to take a stand, and are capable of learning from their failures (even if it takes a little guidance to get there).

Looking at the old EU, my issues with it and looking at TLJ I feel that this film is a deconstruction and reconstruction. We tossed aside the pointless mystery boxes and got rid of characters who were there ultimately just to serve as an explanation for a start of darkness. We focused in on our new characters and what makes them tick, what do they need to learn, and what they can learn from the past while showing them that just repeating old actions without understanding of why they worked or how the situation has changed is a recipe for Disaster.

To me, it's like Lucasfilm took apart the old Star Wars legos, and has begun rebuilding them, based on the foundations of the past but not enslaved to them.

[TGLS]

There's a difference between a man with a time machine thinking about killing young Hitler and deciding it's morally wrong, and the same man thinking about killing young Hitler, going back in time with a sniper rifle, and only deciding not to do it when when he has him dead in his sights. Admittedly, it's possible both can have the same effect, but the two men have significantly different character.

The first thing is an impulse, a thought, something you consider doing when the opportunity is right in front of you.

The second is planned, premeditated choice you work towards doing at length with a long term goal.

Luke absolutely falls into the first group.

From the context we are given it is a thought he has one night, one time, for a second, after seeing some really disturbing dark side signs, that he immediately recoiled from even having thought about it.

He didn't take a swing and miss, he didn't contemplate it every night for weeks until he built up the courage, it was a momentary slip when confronted with the next Vader. And it turns out, that guy actually HAS turned into the next Vader and destroyed planets and killed billions. So, Luke would have been absolutely right to have done it, even if Luke would have felt like a monster himself.

I'm posting this here and not in the previous thread because I'm actually going to use spoilers now. If I remember correctly, the scene where this happened went like this: Luke went into to Kylo's room took out his lightsaber, and was about to swing, then stopped himself. Then Kylo woke up and things went down hill. Now, unless Luke is constantly carries his lightsaber (semi-believable), routinely watches his students while they're sleeping (not believable), and he can draw a lightsaber faster than he can think, he's much closer to the second group than the first group.

[GandALF]

There's a difference between a man with a time machine thinking about killing young Hitler and deciding it's morally wrong, and the same man thinking about killing young Hitler, going back in time with a sniper rifle, and only deciding not to do it when when he has him dead in his sights. Admittedly, it's possible both can have the same effect, but the two men have significantly different character.

The first thing is an impulse, a thought, something you consider doing when the opportunity is right in front of you.

The second is planned, premeditated choice you work towards doing at length with a long term goal.

Luke absolutely falls into the first group.

From the context we are given it is a thought he has one night, one time, for a second, after seeing some really disturbing dark side signs, that he immediately recoiled from even having thought about it.

He didn't take a swing and miss, he didn't contemplate it every night for weeks until he built up the courage, it was a momentary slip when confronted with the next Vader. And it turns out, that guy actually HAS turned into the next Vader and destroyed planets and killed billions. So, Luke would have been absolutely right to have done it, even if Luke would have felt like a monster himself.

I'm posting this here and not in the previous thread because I'm actually going to use spoilers now. If I remember correctly, the scene where this happened went like this: Luke went into to Kylo's room took out his lightsaber, and was about to swing, then stopped himself. Then Kylo woke up and things went down hill. Now, unless Luke is constantly carries his lightsaber (semi-believable), routinely watches his students while they're sleeping (not believable), and he can draw a lightsaber faster than he can think, he's much closer to the second group than the first group.

IIRC its sort of like Han and Greedo

Kylo Ren's version: 1. Luke enters Ben's room 2. Luke ignites his sabre and swings at Ben 3. Ben ignites his sabre in self-defence.

Luke's version: 1. Luke enters Ben's room 2. Luke stares at his at his deactivated sabre in contemplation and his fear begins to fade "it was a passing thing" 3. Ben senses Luke's fear and ignites his sabre 4. Luke activates his sabre in self-defence.

So Solo struck first.

[Fixer]

Not clear, the Dreadnought is stated to be a fleet killer, but I have a hard time believing that Snoke's Flagship didn't have the same kind of range as the Dreadnought. Honestly, until stated otherwise, I feel that The Supremacy could wreck the same kind of damage, if not more, than the Dreadnought. It would fit in with the films themes, making it clear Poe sacrificed all those lives in an ultimately futile gesture. Destroying the Dreadnought, didn't help, since the First Order just had a bigger and better armed ship ready to jump in and wipe out the Resistance fleet.

Apparently the Last Jedi visual guide clears that up. Yes, the Dreadnought cannons have the range to kill the resistance fleet.

Also it suggests when Rey meets Luke for the first time, he only wears the robes to perform one last Jedi rite. In front of that cliff with the long drop.

I honestly see it differently, because the film ultimately upholds some of the best aspects of the past films even as it makes us question the status quo. The Force is not just a tool for the elite, or there to help smash bad guys...it's something MUCH more fundamental and universal. Heroes are not born to the job or from powerful bloodlines, they are people from all walks of life who decided to take a stand, and are capable of learning from their failures (even if it takes a little guidance to get there).

Looking at the old EU, my issues with it and looking at TLJ I feel that this film is a deconstruction and reconstruction. We tossed aside the pointless mystery boxes and got rid of characters who were there ultimately just to serve as an explanation for a start of darkness. We focused in on our new characters and what makes them tick, what do they need to learn, and what they can learn from the past while showing them that just repeating old actions without understanding of why they worked or how the situation has changed is a recipe for Disaster.

To me, it's like Lucasfilm took apart the old Star Wars legos, and has begun rebuilding them, based on the foundations of the past but not enslaved to them.

How has the Last Jedi expanded on anything else we knew about the force? It basically re-hashed everything from the Empire strikes back, but not as well. Yoda never suggested that the force belonged to the Jedi, only the Jedi ethos in its use.

Yet this movie does say that people are born to the job of hero. That's explicitly what the Rey is. There to counter the Dark Side, picked at random, won the force lottery.

Previously you had force sensitivity from bloodlines or randomly appearing in the population, and those people were invited to join the Jedi order if they were discovered in the Republic. They had different strengths in the force but anyone that was capable could train to become stronger. Obi Wan bested Anakin who had the greatest force potential known after all.

What has changed is that apparently the years of discipline, hard work and a rejection of the quick and easy path to power which can corrupt you, are no longer relevant. The force is already quick and easy. You can master it in a weekend without really trying.

Likewise, Luke brushed close to the dark side twice. Once in the cave on Dagobah where his failure taught him a valuable lesson. The second against Vader where his outright rejection of the dark side after his temporary embrace is what defined him as a true Jedi.

The Rey fully embraces the dark side in the dark side cave and... gets a mirror. Is unaffected otherwise.

So the force has gone from a complex spiritual power that needs discipline, focus, technique or ritual to perform with the ever present temptation dark side... to a generic power you are lucky to be born with, fueled by your self confidence or narcissism as applicable.

To build on your Lego analogy, it's like someone stomped on the Star Wars legos with army boots. A few pieces are okay but some are bent or broken and your favourite original minifigs are gone forever. Whoever has to follow up and make something out of that mess is going to have a much harder job making anything good with it.

[Ordo]

How has the Last Jedi expanded on anything else we knew about the force? It basically re-hashed everything from the Empire strikes back, but not as well. Yoda never suggested that the force belonged to the Jedi, only the Jedi ethos in its use.

Yet this movie does say that people are born to the job of hero. That's explicitly what the Rey is. There to counter the Dark Side, picked at random, won the force lottery.

Interestingly enough the story group actually confirmed one of my points about Rey, that during TFA's interrogation scene, a door was opened between Rey and Kylo Ren's minds...one that allows different things to pass between them. That door was shut by Rey at the end of TLJ, but it explains WHY she's grew powerful so fast. Kylo Ren, by trying to 'Take what he wanted' from Rey ended up creating his opposite number and granting her a crash course in force use...hence why she could use a mind trick so fast.

Likewise, Luke brushed close to the dark side twice. Once in the cave on Dagobah where his failure taught him a valuable lesson. The second against Vader where his outright rejection of the dark side after his temporary embrace is what defined him as a true Jedi.

The Rey fully embraces the dark side in the dark side cave and... gets a mirror. Is unaffected otherwise.

I don't think seeking answers about your parents qualified as fully embracing the dark side, it tempted her, sure but in the end, when given a chance, by Kylo Ren, to be important in this story by following him into darkness, she rejected the offer and embraced the light.

So the force has gone from a complex spiritual power that needs discipline, focus, technique or ritual to perform with the ever present temptation dark side... to a generic power you are lucky to be born with, fueled by your self confidence or narcissism as applicable.

That is not what I got from this film at all. Rey's rapidly increasing skill is (as the story group apparently confirmed) a result of the Villain's actions, and Rey's determination. Even with that edge nothing she or Kylo Ren does in this film equals the ability of their respective masters (Luke/Snoke). In a straight conflict, as frail as Snoke was physically he completely dominated Kylo Ren forcing his apprentice to 'Back stab' his mastery in order to ascend. Then there's Luke, who completely outclasses pretty much any Jedi whose come before by projecting himself from worlds away, and completely dominating that fight with Kylo Ren even though he never attacked him at all. THAT is the difference focus, Technique and discipline make. Rey and Kylo are novices, tapping into the most basic expressions of the Force. Luke's a master and the difference between them is wide, deep and clear by films end.