Star Wars: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

[Ordo]

There's a difference between a man with a time machine thinking about killing young Hitler and deciding it's morally wrong, and the same man thinking about killing young Hitler, going back in time with a sniper rifle, and only deciding not to do it when when he has him dead in his sights. Admittedly, it's possible both can have the same effect, but the two men have significantly different character.

The first thing is an impulse, a thought, something you consider doing when the opportunity is right in front of you.

The second is planned, premeditated choice you work towards doing at length with a long term goal.

Luke absolutely falls into the first group.

From the context we are given it is a thought he has one night, one time, for a second, after seeing some really disturbing dark side signs, that he immediately recoiled from even having thought about it.

He didn't take a swing and miss, he didn't contemplate it every night for weeks until he built up the courage, it was a momentary slip when confronted with the next Vader. And it turns out, that guy actually HAS turned into the next Vader and destroyed planets and killed billions. So, Luke would have been absolutely right to have done it, even if Luke would have felt like a monster himself.

I'm posting this here and not in the previous thread because I'm actually going to use spoilers now. If I remember correctly, the scene where this happened went like this: Luke went into to Kylo's room took out his lightsaber, and was about to swing, then stopped himself. Then Kylo woke up and things went down hill. Now, unless Luke is constantly carries his lightsaber (semi-believable), routinely watches his students while they're sleeping (not believable), and he can draw a lightsaber faster than he can think, he's much closer to the second group than the first group.

IIRC its sort of like Han and Greedo

Kylo Ren's version: 1. Luke enters Ben's room 2. Luke ignites his sabre and swings at Ben 3. Ben ignites his sabre in self-defence.

Luke's version: 1. Luke enters Ben's room 2. Luke stares at his at his deactivated sabre in contemplation and his fear begins to fade "it was a passing thing" 3. Ben senses Luke's fear and ignites his sabre 4. Luke activates his sabre in self-defence.

So Solo struck first.

Agreed. It's actually flat out shown that Luke draws his Lightsaber when he sees just how far Ben has fallen into darkness. It's not a scenario in which he spent weeks agonizing about killing him...it was a flashing thought...and since we've seen this before (Luke shouting 'NEVER' to Vader before nearly killing him on the Death Star II) I fully believe that Luke went down there just to see and verbally confront Ben about his slide into darkness. What he found was Hitler Junior and the sight and thought of all he loved burning caused him to react faster than he could think....but he caught himself...though not fast enough to deescalate the situation.

[Admiral X]

How has the Last Jedi expanded on anything else we knew about the force? It basically re-hashed everything from the Empire strikes back, but not as well. Yoda never suggested that the force belonged to the Jedi, only the Jedi ethos in its use.

Yet this movie does say that people are born to the job of hero. That's explicitly what the Rey is. There to counter the Dark Side, picked at random, won the force lottery.

The other thing is, if you think about it, the Force ethos has been flipped. Previously, it was the Jedi who had to work hard and keep themselves well disciplined, putting personal feelings behind them so as to avoid being tempted by the dark side, whereas those on the dark side were taking the quick and easy way by giving into feelings like anger and hatred. Now, Kylo Ren is the one who is constantly being tempted and has to work hard, only to be overpowered by someone who has it come to them very easily, and who seems to always be giving into emotion.

[ORCACommander]

Reality is a 3 sides sword, There is Your recount of Events, My recount of events and the Truth, Rarely shall these 3 be in alignment.
I'd say luke's moment of weakness is double homage. First is a homage to Roshamon. Second being a homage to lucas who was fond of borrowing heavily from Kirosawa's films.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

With all my problems with the movie, Luke briefly considering killing his nephew isn't really one of them. I think we have to keep in mind that even Luke isn't necessarily giving himself the benefit of the doubt, so even when we see things from his perspective we aren't necessarily seeing the "true" version of events.. Kylo was already deeply under Snoke's influence, and there's a good chance that he saw something pretty unspeakable in his mind. Heck, he might have even foreseen Han's death and all the suffering Kylo would cause, and a brief consideration of "maybe it's better to end it now" doesn't seem totally out of place for a hero.

Drawing his lightsaber, or even having it with him, in that moment is much more of a stretch, but even that isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is the notion that Luke would abandon everything to the First Order for years. As plenty of TLJ's defenders have pointed out, bursts of anger are a well-established part of Luke's character- but abandoning his friends is something that the character Star Wars fans knew and loved would have never done, and I can't for the life of me understand how Rian Johnson thinks that makes sense.

The first thing Luke Skywalker would do is go after Snoke. He apparently knew that's where the dark influence was coming from, and yet the possibility of seeking him out and cutting off that influence is never considered. If for some reason Luke allowed things to go as far as he did, he would have gone out in a blaze of glory, sacrificing himself for his family in his confrontation against Snoke and all he stands for. That's the blindingly obvious, in-character thing for Luke to do, and yet it's never even brought up as a live option.

To me that's where the real butchering of the character takes place, not in his brief temptation with Kylo, but in his years of abandoning his friends despite having the power to save them. For a while I thought Luke might have a ground-breaking, meaty philosophical reason for not taking action, but instead it turned out that he was just a depressed coward.

[RobbyB1982]

Running off to hide on a deserted planet and cutting yourself off from the force is kind of what Jedi do. Obi Wan and Yoda both did it. (And Ahsoka who the movies never mention.) They had decades to go face the emperor and Vader, to raise an army, never did. They abandoned their friends and the universe too, where's the shaming of them? Heck, Yoda never did *anything* again after his failure, he just stayed on Dagobah until he died. Obi Wan at least started to do stuff again when the situation demanded it, but he still hid out for 20 years doing nothing but checking on Luke ocassionally.

Luke is built up as this epic larger than life legend because we've had 40 years to process that and he was THE focal point in our small glimpse into the SW universe.... and the following 40 years of EU material around it. But he was just a man that happened to be around during a big thing. A hero, sure, he did legendary things, but he was not singlehandedly personally responsible for going out and defeating millions of badguys and soloing the great evil like he was a video game character. He did great things, but he was NOT the legend, no one could be what he was romanticized into being. The legend was bigger than he could ever be. ANd he was so wracked with guilt he cut himself entirely off from the force, that's why he didn't sense Han dying. That was the entire point.

ANd then, in the end of the film, where he singlehandedly does the stuff he does and makes an epic legendary hero entrance, he's reigniting that legend and living up to it all the same. True to not, he's feeding the myth then and not running from it.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I've seen people make that defense before, but there's no equivalence between those situations. Luke abandoned his friends before the Republic was destroyed and before the First Order was in power. It would be akin to Obi Wan and Yoda calling it quits before order 66 or the moment they discovered the Anakin was flirting with the dark side. He gives the Jedi Council a hard time for not seeing what was coming, and yet how much worse is it to know what's coming but still do nothing?

Obi Wan didn't abandon anyone. Darth Vader and the Emperor were both more powerful than he was, they had already won, and Obi Wan did what he could to protect Luke until he was ready.

Yoda is a different case, since he really is an odd hermit and may actually be too old to do anything. The prequels change him into a powerful warrior, but in the OT he can barely move around. But even Yoda did confront Sidious at the end of Revenge of the Sith, only to realize that he couldn't save the day. Again, not what Luke did.

The theme about Luke not being a legend, that whole story thread isn't something Luke was ever concerned with in the OT. If Luke was a legend, it was because of his compassion and ability to see good in the darkest places- that's what he saw that even Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't, and that's exactly what was taken away from him in this movie. It isn't shocking at all that long-time fans aren't happy with that.

[GandALF]

I don't think he goes "ah screw it" right after the Ben incident

It's stated in the opening crawl for TFA that killing Luke is one of the First Order's top priorities and until the Hosnian Prime attack the New Republic and the First Order/Imperial remnant are at peace and Jedi are peacekeepers so he can't demand they start a war, but his presence still gives the First Order an incentive to attack.

So he goes into exile to delay the First Order's attack on the Republic. Then he finds Ahch-To and pieces together the Jedi texts and only by the time Rey arrives has he become completely disillusioned.

If he was completely disillusioned from the beginning he wouldn't seek out Ahch-To in the first place.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I'd need to see it again or read a transcript to be sure, but I don't recall TLJ indicating that he went to Ahch-To for any reason other than to hide (on "the hardest planet in the galaxy to find") and die, which are the two reasons that he gives Rey. It's implied (albeit as another corny joke) that he didn't even read the Jedi texts in all his time there. I took the third, implicit reason for his choosing that location to be sentimental attachment, as well as Luke never truly believing that the Jedi must end.

Like I said, I was expecting a philosophical or Force-related reason, maybe the hope that hiding his own power would also limit the power of the Dark Side. The only explanation I see in the movie is that he went there to die as a failure, abandoning the galaxy in the process. If some Star Wars fans think that makes Luke's arc more meaningful and impacting, more power to them, but to me it's almost the polar opposite of the character as we originally saw him. What compounds the problem is that Rey takes on the good traits that Luke used to have, inherits none of the bad ones, has no dark side temptation, and has a generally easy time teaching Luke and the galaxy how Jedi should really behave.

[GandALF]

What compounds the problem is that Rey takes on the good traits that Luke used to have, inherits none of the bad ones, has no dark side temptation, and has a generally easy time teaching Luke and the galaxy how Jedi should really behave.

She arguably has worse traits, in ESB Luke acts out fear for his friends dying and walks into Vader's trap. In TLJ Rey acts solely out of fear of being a nobody and walks right into Kylo Ren's trap and he actually succeeds in using her to help him kill his master.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

What compounds the problem is that Rey takes on the good traits that Luke used to have, inherits none of the bad ones, has no dark side temptation, and has a generally easy time teaching Luke and the galaxy how Jedi should really behave.

She arguably has worse traits, in ESB Luke acts out fear for his friends dying and walks into Vader's trap. In TLJ Rey acts solely out of fear of being a nobody and walks right into Kylo Ren's trap and he actually succeeds in using her to help him kill his master.

Wanting to find her place in the fight against the Dark Side is basically the most benign "weakness" imaginable. As soon as her being a nobody was made explicit, she made her choice to be everybody's hero without hesitation.

Getting Snoke killed is almost certainly a positive.

She helps Kylo because she believes there could be good in him and it's their best chance to take down the First Order. She may even be proven right eventually, but even if she failed it's a noble, Luke-like attempt. She alone escapes any consequences for failure.

Luke, who has already been through his hero's journey, is dragged to a place that is completely contrary to his established characteristics. Rey, on the other hand, the one who we're incessantly told is the center of the story, shows up every character, from the old heroes to the villain, without any moral struggle at all. I would love to love scenes like Yoda telling Luke about the burdens of masters and students outgrowing them, but that all rings false based on what actually happened in the movie. Rey never needed a master, the Luke we see never did and never could teach her anything of value, and Rey surpassed the old guard on a moral/goodness level without even trying. It's horrid storytelling, in my opinion.