Star Trek (DS9): Crossover

[MerelyAFan]

https://www.sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/d443.php

I think Crossover definitely still holds up in aesthetics at least, with the cinematography and camera really working to give the station a warped feel to what we were used to. The effect is admittedly lessened given we already saw some of the darker lighting/set work with the Terok Nor flashbacks in Necessary Evil and would again i later episodes, but it still works here.

I think its greatest faults are that while some of the Mirror equivalents are genuinely fascinating with the Intendant, Sisko, and Smiley; those like Garak and Odo just feel like the generically evil versions, with the novelty of that quickly wearing off. A more throughly explored authoritarian Odo, with a far greater resemblance to the Founders might have made his scenes stand out a bit more. Andrew Robinson reportedly hated performing mirror Garak as he lacked any of thing nuance and mystery of prime version, and in later mirror episodes you can just see him practically rolling his eyes having to play him again.

Given that the mirror episodes in general hit a law of diminishing returns hard, in hindsight it probably would have been better off just stop here while suggesting some ambiguity on Kira and Bashir's part on if they've made a positive difference or have once again inadvertently made things worse.

[Yukaphile]

I didn't think the "Me Too" joke was that funny, but then, it was very light on details, so it's something I can overlook.

[Yukaphile]

The joke about New Bajor, however, had me in stitches. : >

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I may be in the minority, but I don't like the mirror universe episodes all that much. The original from TOS is absolutely a classic, but after that they don't have a whole lot going for them other than allowing characters to act unlike themselves and kill each other off. There's novelty value to it, but as Chuck said, after that wears off there isn't a huge amount of interest here.

The idea that Spock's reforms would actually be a negative rubs me the wrong way and also strikes me as incredibly absurd. Kirk was right in the first place that the Terran Empire was illogical and could never survive. Sending the message that they somehow needed the egoism, murder, and endless backstabbing to survive as a society... no thanks. I'm all for shaking up the Roddenberry utopian vision and asking the hard questions, but it doesn't work when the mirror universe has no subtlety or nuance to it at all.

[Yukaphile]

Well, Enterprise didn't help in that regard. As Chuck said, it implies that the xenophobia and backstabbing and greed and naked ambition was just fine until they tried to change that, even though it was portrayed as completely counterproductive in "In A Mirror, Darkly."

[Madner Kami]

Rome survived for a thousand years, while pointlessly stupid backstabbery was going on all the time. It sometimes even worked to their advantage and it continued being that way when Byzantium carried on the torch of Roman Society for another thousand years. The finer point of such a society is, that you generally do not get the idiots and incompetents to be the leaders, because they are removed from the equation rather sooner than later.*

*I am in no way endorsing such a culture, but I can perfectly see how backstabbery can actually end up being productive for a society at large. Of course such a culture is also inherently instable and prone to exploitation from outside forces, due to wasting forces for internal squabbles.

[PlasmaHam]

DS9 mirror universe episodes were hit-and-miss, especially as you went into the latter ones, but overall I liked them. Character is probably one of the biggest strengths of them. Most of them were interesting reinterpretations and just fascinating characters in their own right. Mirror Garak was definitely one of the lesser-developed ones, but in my mind he, by comparison, helped indicate just how dangerous prime-universe Garak is. I believe that one of the later mirror-universe episodes even made mention that mirror Garak was an amateur compared to our Garak.

I can understand how the revelation about Spock's reform's dooming the human race would tick off some people, but it does make sense to me. As Chuck said, the Mirror Universe is filled with hostile races and powers that especially hate humans. These powers are naturally going to exploit a perceived weakness is the Terran Empire. And in reality, it's what the Terran Empire had coming for it. We can pretend that simply deciding to be good would erase any prior animosity, but that isn't reality.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Whether such a society/nation/empire can survive despite those kind of elements in their society (it can) and whether those elements taken to their greatest extreme might actually be beneficial are two different questions, questions that Crossover conflates.

As I said, part of the problem is that the Mirror Universe doesn't do nuance. It would be interesting to explore the potential benefits of ruling with an iron fist and keeping the subjects under you in a state of fear, but that isn't what the Terran Empire did. Backstabbing and assassination is literally the bedrock of their culture. Every single time the heroes drop in, there is plotting to overthrow the ruling authority or to kill someone. If you wanted to say that Spock's reforms were too little too late, I could buy that. But the idea that not killing everyone around you would somehow signify weakness and destabilize their Empire is absurd.

As far as Rome goes, I'm no expert, but I would credit its long-term survival to its stability, orderliness, relative political and economic sophistication, and simply being too large and expansive for smaller nations to have a hope to successfully invade. Assassinations, political upheaval, and cruelty were survived (and all things that were pretty common everywhere, not just with Rome), but those things played their role in Rome's eventual decline as well.

[Admiral X]

This is my favorite of the mirror universe episodes, largely because of the Kira/Kira interaction. I couldn't help but get the feeling that the only reason the Intendant was keeping her counterpart alive was because she was trying to seduce her. Like she was such a vain weirdo that she would actually like the idea of being able to fuck herself. I mean, what with having her come meet with her just as she was getting out of the tub, giving her the revealing party dress, and just how she was acting around her in general, I got that vibe. Of course, it was also kind of weird in the sense that regular Kira was so ... passive around her counterpart. Yeah, she came out and said she was afraid of her. But it's interesting because while I saw the Dukat parallel, I never saw it as regular Kira seeing that she could become that herself if she were in charge of DS9, so that's an interesting thought that Chuck brought up.

[Admiral X]

I didn't think the "Me Too" joke was that funny, but then, it was very light on details, so it's something I can overlook.

youtu.be/p6oMdy6-j5A