Star Trek (DS9): Crossover

[Admiral X]

As far as Rome goes, I'm no expert, but I would credit its long-term survival to its stability, orderliness, relative political and economic sophistication, and simply being too large and expansive for smaller nations to have a hope to successfully invade. Assassinations, political upheaval, and cruelty were survived (and all things that were pretty common everywhere, not just with Rome), but those things played their role in Rome's eventual decline as well.

There was quite a bit of emphasis on serving in the military, and as I recall, in the Republic days, military service was required to have a political career. And one of the reasons for the continual conquest was that this was a way to make the masses happy, because it brought riches to their country from these conquered lands, and brought political opportunity for the patrician class because of the need to administer these new provinces. In any case, discipline within the army was brutal, with decimation being the classic example, where the soldiers were separated into groups of ten and forced to kill one of their number, or they would all be killed.

Later, during the waning days of the Empire, military service didn't have the same kind of honored distinction anymore, and this is where the famous "mark of the legion" came in so that deserters could be found more easily. Rome came to depend more and more on the Auxiliaries for their defense (which were largely made up of foreigners who were trying to earn citizenship), and politically pretty much everything was focused inward.

[drthmik]

Checks Chin...
...
...
There IS a Goatee there!!!!!!
...
But there is ALWAYS a goatee there
I'm ALWAYS in the Mirror Universe!?

[Asvarduil]

Checks Chin...
...
...
There IS a Goatee there!!!!!!
...
But there is ALWAYS a goatee there
I'm ALWAYS in the Mirror Universe!?

You're lucky that you're in the same universe as 'sweet flower-child Janeway'.

[Madner Kami]

As far as Rome goes, I'm no expert, but I would credit its long-term survival to its stability, orderliness, relative political and economic sophistication, and simply being too large and expansive for smaller nations to have a hope to successfully invade. Assassinations, political upheaval, and cruelty were survived (and all things that were pretty common everywhere, not just with Rome), but those things played their role in Rome's eventual decline as well.

I did not say the backstabbery was solely responsible for the success of Rome. I merely pointed out that a society that encourages backstabbing to advance oneself, is not automatically a society that is doomed from the get go. The societal pressure, in particular among the aristocratic patrician class, created a climate that enticed people to do great things, be that public works or glory in conquest. As said, this often enough flew right back into their faces, particularly after phases of relative peace and a more internal focus, just think of why the Spartacus-rebellion was so successful or why, in part, Hannibal could do what he did, but this very climate is also responsible for making Rome the sole superpower in the mediterranean area for a thousand years. Caesar in particular comes to mind, whose life and achievements simply could not have happened without the backstabbery going on.

[Linkara]

It should be noted that while we saw plenty of backstabbing in "In a Mirror, Darkly" it wasn't like people were just waiting happily to do so at ANY opportunity. It was commented on multiple times that Starfleet wouldn't support Archer's mutiny unless there was some actual merit in what he wanted that was being denied - in this case the advanced tech of the Defiant. Hell, he even had to falsify orders to do to get any crew behind him on it because otherwise they DID have a sense of loyalty. I can imagine it operating very similarly to how it worked on a Klingon ship, according to Dax - rules in place for mutiny to avoid an atmosphere of chaos, like only being allowed to do so if it's your direct superior, or doing so only if you think the superior is acting in dereliction of their duty, that kind of thing.

[Darth Wedgius]

If Kira wanted to meditate, why is she in the one room of the runabout that has Bashir in it?And with Bashir being annoying, why did she stay there?

I liked this episode. It's OK to me that Kirk and Mirror!Spock were fallible. I can't even say they messed up, because the mirror universe was not really better, it was just better for humans. And peace and egalitarianism aren't magic everything-works buttons; the Moriori people took up pacifism even as the Taranaki Maori invaded, and it didn't end with the Taranaki Maori discovering the wisdom of pacifism and ushering in a new golden age. It ended with the Moriori almost being wiped out. The Terran Empire at least partly ruled by fear ("Terror must be maintained or the Empire is doomed.") and resentment over that probably wouldn't disappear overnight. All over our world are people who want every member of another group to answer for their ancestors' misdeeds.

But I admit that I like this episode more for the over-the-top villainy of our heroes' counterparts than anything else, though. I realize that means I'm enjoying it for the very reason that some other people don't. I hope at least some of the actors enjoyed performing this as much as I enjoyed watching it.

[AllanO]

As Chuck suggests the idea that the agony booth, kill your superior and we all go up in rank Terran Empire was just fine until Kick and co. screwed it up is a bit suspect. For all we know about Terran Empire society 99% of the population was already living in abject slavery under the heel of a ruling (Terran) elite before Goatee-Spock's reforms, so for most Terrans the conquest of the Terran Empire may have been the end of a brief respite from one tyrant due to subjugation under another, meet the new boss same as the old boss.

In real life it is often the case that a successful rebellion against one tyrant ultimately ends with another tyrant taking control of the country or the country falling into violent chaos and it may be worse than the original tyrant. This can even be true when the overthrow of the tyrant is initially achieved by relatively peaceful means. The thing is even if there is a 90% chance that even a successful overthrow of a tyrant will lead 5 years later to a new tyranny, this has to be weighed against the fact that not overthrowing the tyrant leads to something like a 99% chance of the same tyrant (or his chosen successor) being around in 5 years. So Goatee-Spock's reforms may have been as reasonable a solution as any other.

Also history is written by the victors, perhaps Goatee-Spock's reforms actually staved off the fall of the Terran Empire by reducing hostility against Terrans (maybe the Romulans or some other great power would have joined the fight against the Terrans had they not reformed) but the Klingon-Cardasian alliance likes to justify its own oppressive practices using the parable of how Kirk and Goatee-Spock screwed up the Terran Empire by reducing its oppressiveness. Although that might be a stretch going by the depiction in this and other mirror universe eps. I forget how it was nuanced. I am not sure I ever saw this episode all the way through (I think I only ever saw the second half).

Interestingly Quark was arguably sympathetic to the Bajoran refuges etc. beyond what a properly profit driven Ferengi should have been in the prime universe, so his mirror counterpart was arguably not much different, both were sort of in about the same moral grey zone.

[bronnt]

For all the exposition we get in the mirror universe, I still feel like there's not enough world-building involved. It leads to everything feeling rather one-note. It's hard for me to understand, for instance, Mirror Kira because she seems to operate on "evil for evils sake." They justify this with a bit of dialogue about how she's fighting against boredom, but that just means the screenplay is free to have her act without any pattern or consistency without examining her character. Mirror-Odo might as well be played by an extra for all the personality he brings, and Mirror Garak is flat as well.

The single somewhat interesting mirror is Sisko. He's heavily underused in this episode and dies off-screen so we never see him again.

[Sir Will]

I really liked this episode. I can't say the same for all the ones that came after. I wish they'd just left it as is.

[Yukaphile]

I dunno, Crossover is my least favorite Mirror Universe episode, mostly because of all the Dutch angles. I much prefer the stuff that comes after. With the exception of Enterprise, of course.