Star Trek (DS9): Crossover

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Another problem I have with the MU is that it reeks of small universe syndrome. Mirror Spock becoming "Commander in Chief of the Empire" is really not in line with either version of the character, especially in light of Spock's preference to not even make captain. The idea that after such cataclysmic changes to a timeline that was already different, everyone from DS9 would somehow find their way back there in positions of power is unbelievable. It's pretty questionable whether many of the characters would have even been born.

Of course the writers realize all that and make the MU about mindless fun rather than a serious story. But the fun wears off a good deal as the novelty does.

What Kirk did with Khan could certainly be construed as a mistake. Kirk telling Mirror Spock that the Terran Empire is wasteful and illogical isn't a mistake, it's common sense. It's classic Star Trek ethics. Spock estimated that the Empire was going to continue its reign of terror for 240 more years before its collapse. What the EU did with it does make some logical sense if you assume that the Empire's defeat was a goal and pushback against them from other powers an inevitability.

[AllanO]

Another problem I have with the MU is that it reeks of small universe syndrome. Mirror Spock becoming "Commander in Chief of the Empire" is really not in line with either version of the character, especially in light of Spock's preference to not even make captain. The idea that after such cataclysmic changes to a timeline that was already different, everyone from DS9 would somehow find their way back there in positions of power is unbelievable. It's pretty questionable whether many of the characters would have even been born.

It is highly improbable that the same people would be born in slightly different universes (just to be genetically identical one particular sperm has to meet one particular egg as far as I can see that requires that the sex act occur at basically the same time, if the parents just have slightly different schedules in the two universes I am not clear they would conceive the same children, much less situations where the parents might never meet etc.). There is virtually no way that you are going to get the same people born in two radically different universe. So the mirror universe already works by rearranging higher level elements (people) from universe A to arrive at universe B. The fact that it is also mixing and matching sociological elements (leader in A is a leader in B) just makes the dependence of these higher level elements more obvious, but in either case there has to be some dependence between the universes beyond basic physics (if only physics were the same between the two then they would diverge between higher level elements given different initial conditions).

Perhaps it is interesting to try and imagine what this condition would induce this sort of dependence. Obviously as a TV show script the writers are just copying and mix and matching elements of the show into the mirror universe. The mirror universe is a copy of the standard universe, but it is fun (maybe?) to play with these ideas. Could the two universes be coconstructed (for example conception in one universe depends not only on the factors going on in that universe but also in the other universe) or could the standard universe be the copy (all plot holes now explained by the fact the universe had to rearrange to conform to the mirror universe).

[FakeGeekGirl]

Fiction with parallel universes that mirror each other so closely tends to imply a certain level of predestination. So much so it bothers me when things aren't alike. Why is there no Jake or Molly in the Mirror U? How can they mirror each other so closely, with everyone else being conceived at exactly the same time, and the same sperm meeting the same egg every time, and yet entire people just don't exist? The inconsistency bothers me.

I really liked this episode the first time I saw it but the more we visited the mirror universe, the less I liked it. As many others have said, the novelty wore off. It also felt like "Oh good we're having a break from consequences this week." It's just ... all so very pointless and silly.

[Darth Wedgius]

An old fan fic I read a long, long time ago had the mirror universe being created by the Excalbians in their "Good vs Evil 101" studies, and they'd periodically adjust the MU to make it more like the "real" Trek universe.

If you want to handwave it, both the main Trek universe and the MU should be splitting along different probabilities ala the ones Worf visited when his shuttlecraft took a wrong turn at Space Albuquerque in "Parallels." So there could be a MU with Evil Kira in Leather Pants, and they could've just happened to run into to that one.

There's a Larry Niven story, "All the Myriad Ways," that covers that option better, albeit without the mirror universe.

[Archon_Wing]

Don't kill Bashir!!

Err. Yea! And I can never get over intendant Kira's tiara thing. It's just so funny looking.

[Aotrs Commander]

I always liked the Mirror Universe (and in general, the mirror universe concept that it if not invented, popularised), myself, though a little less on the DS9 end, which took it a bit too seriously for my tastes. Other people might find entertaiment in the philosphical questions raised... Me, I'm a terrible peasant, I just loved seeing everyone turning the ham up and being moustache-twirlingly evil, because I find that *hilarious*.

The last episodes of Enterprise I watched was the mirror universe one, and I laughed my arse off at it. It was a high point, one feels to have stopped at. (I just never got around to watching the last, what three episodes or something, being a bit put off by the pointless finale character death; I quite liked Enterprise myself.)

But then, seeing established characters doing silly things seems to be something of my jam. I am one of the few unashamed fans of Teen Titans Go (and never more than those episodes everyone else takes umbridge at!) and I was killing myself watching Rock Lee's Ninja Pals just last night (which is akin to Naruto's TTG, except it ran concurrently) . So go figure.

[Linkara]

Honestly I think Kirk was still right to do what he did - it's still the right cause and there was no way for him to know there were other aggressive powers who would take advantage of it (it's not likely he had a crapton of time to study the intergalactic political situation). And honestly, there are aggressive powers within the regular Star Trek universe yet the Federation is still able to hold its own against them. A republic or representative democracy does not equal weakness. According to the intendant, one of the reforms Spock pushed for was "Disarmament." It's more likely that while Spock's reforms WERE helpful in a lot of places, but he might have done too much too fast that resulted in the eventual pushback of the Empire. Given also how the Enterprise operated, it's possible that a lot more Captains fought against the reforms than embraced them, so that even if he still had a functioning military, they were in a much weaker position as a result of infighting and civil war.

[Aotrs Commander]

Honestly I think Kirk was still right to do what he did - it's still the right cause and there was no way for him to know there were other aggressive powers who would take advantage of it (it's not likely he had a crapton of time to study the intergalactic political situation). And honestly, there are aggressive powers within the regular Star Trek universe yet the Federation is still able to hold its own against them. A republic or representative democracy does not equal weakness. According to the intendant, one of the reforms Spock pushed for was "Disarmament." It's more likely that while Spock's reforms WERE helpful in a lot of places, but he might have done too much too fast that resulted in the eventual pushback of the Empire. Given also how the Enterprise operated, it's possible that a lot more Captains fought against the reforms than embraced them, so that even if he still had a functioning military, they were in a much weaker position as a result of infighting and civil war.

Plus, it's a bit dubious to assume that if Kirk hadn't interferred, that the universe would have been modally better off. Sure, humans might have been - but at who's expense?

(And that sort of assumes that the net result of the people at the bottom of the pyramid of the Terran Empire were actually much better off under the rule of tyrannical human masters than they were under the Klingons and Cardassians. The Terran Empire were a mob who institutionalised torture, I somehow VERY much doubt that the average citizen was exactly living the high life to start with.)

Heck, a full-scale galactic war between superpowers with no compunctions could easily have escalated into all sorts of atrocities.

I don't therefore think we can blame Kirk too much for what he did - TRYING to do the right thing, since there is no suggestion that, even taking a very humanocentric view (i.e. "humans would not have been enslaved!"), it WASN'T for the better. It is just in a (hilariously) nasty place like the mirrior universe, "better" might just only be "very slightly less crap."

[PapaPalpatine]

To be fair, disarmament in a time when you have lots of hostile powers around you who would like nothing less than to see your civilization in ruins and your territory divided up among themselves doesn't sound like a very bright idea. If anything, that's a time when you'd want to beef up you military as much as you possibly can to make those aforementioned enemies think twice about starting anything.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

If you take the long, Asimovian view, it seems plausible that the Terran Empire continuing its reign of terror for another 150 years would have made the galaxy a worse place and led to an ultimately worse predicament for humans. Humans were in a rough spot, but it was still fixable.

To further excuse Kirk, disarmament is definitely not what he had in mind, and there's really no indication that Mirror Spock would have gone for it either. After all, Spock's whole objection to not changing things for the better was that "a man must also have the power" to back up his play. What sold him on the plan was the Tantalus field. Regular old Spock is definitely more pacifistic than Kirk, and in The Savage Curtain he even indicates that's he's willing to go along with Surak's foolhardy "Let's not even protect ourselves" approach. I wouldn't expect Mirror Spock to share that sentiment, however, but I guess according to canon he took the "New Republic approach" to ruling the galaxy.