The War Prayer (B5)

[FaxModem1]

Babylon 5 had a feeling of, "The more things change, the more things stay the same" in regards to human nature. Though, this came with a message that things were improving. Note that it's an Asian guy who is an utter racist towards aliens, and no one gives it a second thought about him being the bigot character, except that he's a bigot. Gay marriage was a non-issue in season 4, in which Marcus and Franklin use cover identities as a couple on their honeymoon. People from all over see to get along, no matter the origin(unless money on a baseball game was on the line, then things got nasty).

Enterprise did a similar thing with Terra Prime in season 4, with the recruiter and second in command of the xenophobic organization being a black guy. Things have improved, but we still have problems.

Separately, in regards to political violence. I worry that viewing violence as acceptable if someone disagrees with you, you're making clear 'us vs them' battlelines, and preventing anyone from being able to reach out and moderate, or build commonalities. That's not to say I don't think we should have lines of self defense, and ensure that one isn't a lamb to the slaughter, but hitting someone for simply disagreeing with you means that you are against someone discussing anything with you.

That said, yes, there are people who will loudly state that they wish to kill you. That's why you prepare your defenses, and be prepared if they come. But you don't try and silence every voice different from yours, as you'll soon mesh those who are the enemy and those who are different from you.

[Arkle]

Separately, in regards to political violence. I worry that viewing violence as acceptable if someone disagrees with you, you're making clear 'us vs them' battlelines, and preventing anyone from being able to reach out and moderate, or build commonalities.

I get that, and I'm not unsympathetic (hopefully no one thinks I am in favor of forcing people who prefer non-violence for personal or religious reasons to start punching Nazis; leave that to the people who are comfortable/capable of it), but when one side is operating from a place of "I don't think certain types of people should be allowed any rights/to exist," then there can be no moderation with them. It's like the marriage equality debate. When anti-gay marriage people talked about "civil unions" as a compromise, what they failed to recognize (or did know, but were flat out lying) was that marriage equality WAS the middle ground. The other extreme of "only cishet people can marry" is "NO cishet people can marry." Now, I'm not equating being against marriage quality with being pro-genocide per se (though I think we can agree there is a lot of overlap in that venn diagram), but when someone is out there openly advocating for deporting everyone who isn't white from the United States, they've already crossed the line. The middle ground with them is "Fine, you can be a racist shithead all you want personally, but you have to accept the fact that POC live here too." Giving them any more ground than that is surrendering to extremism. And if just debating with them was something that could work... well I'd say there are a few million Jews, gays, Romani, and Communists who would tell you from experience that that don't work if they were alive to say so.

That's not to say I don't think we should have lines of self defense, and ensure that one isn't a lamb to the slaughter, but hitting someone for simply disagreeing with you means that you are against someone discussing anything with you.

The problem with this statement is, when we're talking about someone advocating fro denial of rights to a community you belong to, that's not mere disagreement. They are trying to destroy you. Tarja vs. Annete is a mere disagreement. Kirk vs. Picard is a mere disagreement. DC vs. Marvel is a mere disagreement. Mike vs. Joel is mere disagreement. If Richard Spencer were being punched in the face because he didn't think Jar Jar Binks was all that bad your point would be 100% valid. In reality though, it's not so clear cut.

That said, yes, there are people who will loudly state that they wish to kill you. That's why you prepare your defenses, and be prepared if they come. But you don't try and silence every voice different from yours, as you'll soon mesh those who are the enemy and those who are different from you.

I used to think that. The past few years have made me seriously reconsider, though.

[SpacePaladin]

Babylon 5 was the first sci-fi show I really watched but I never quite realized how weird that ending was. G'Kar was just using the same tactics as those humans he's looking down on. Delenn Knows all too well what it's like to give into hatred and let it lead you on a personal level. As the show goes on we see that her species is just as capable as humans with hatred and fear.I don't deny it was a message episode but that last it felt more like it was trying to say something else now that I've watched the review. These people are blinded to their own faults. They look down on others and say they can't understand but those they looked down on they stood where they stand.

I wonder if the lack of acknowledgement is intentional. It probably is.

[MadAmosMalone]

The problem with this statement is, when we're talking about someone advocating fro denial of rights to a community you belong to, that's not mere disagreement. They are trying to destroy you. Tarja vs. Annete is a mere disagreement. Kirk vs. Picard is a mere disagreement. DC vs. Marvel is a mere disagreement. Mike vs. Joel is mere disagreement. If Richard Spencer were being punched in the face because he didn't think Jar Jar Binks was all that bad your point would be 100% valid. In reality though, it's not so clear cut.

I love Annete dearly but Tarja is clearly the better singer.

[Durandal_1707]

It's fascinating—and depressing—how prescient this show could be at times.

[CareerKnight]

It's like the marriage equality debate. When anti-gay marriage people talked about "civil unions" as a compromise, what they failed to recognize (or did know, but were flat out lying) was that marriage equality WAS the middle ground. The other extreme of "only cishet people can marry" is "NO cishet people can marry."

The thing is that this is a good counter example for your argument. Gays can now get married in the US and it wasn't punching a bunch of bigots in the face that got us here. The thing was that a lot of people who were originally against it were convinced to change their minds through rational arguments, made easier by the fact it was something a lot of them hadn't giving much thought to before. If you start shoving around someone who is in that position they're more likely to push back than to reconsider.

[StrangeDevice]

It's fascinating—and depressing—how prescient this show could be at times.

Take comfort in the fact that it hasn't reached "Severed Dreams" levels yet.

[Rocketboy1313]

I would also recommend to everyone on here who has a twitter, follow JMS on twitter.

If you tweet at him he will occasionally tweet back owing to the personal tradition he started with "Babylon 5" to be in contact with his fans via the internet.

[Fixer]

The thing is that this is a good counter example for your argument. Gays can now get married in the US and it wasn't punching a bunch of bigots in the face that got us here. The thing was that a lot of people who were originally against it were convinced to change their minds through rational arguments, made easier by the fact it was something a lot of them hadn't giving much thought to before. If you start shoving around someone who is in that position they're more likely to push back than to reconsider.

I wholeheartedly agree.

The "punch a nazi" sentiment that has spread on social media, accepting likes and upvotes as some sort of tacit moral approval has only managed to paint a political group as one that is desperately trying to rationalise their own desire to do violence to others.

Combine this with Godwin's law and the highly reactionary approach of individuals to declare people with opposing moderate to conservative views as fascist. It's no surprise people can see the slippery slope and how the justification of "I called you a Nazi, now I can punch you" could be used to silence or intimidate themselves in the future.

Instead of changing views, violence cements them.

[Wild_Kraken]

The discussion got off topic and has been split. Please use this thread for discussion relating directly to the episode and/or the review. The larger discussion on political violence has been moved into the News board.